High Performance Rifle Barrel Cleaning - Video

[qldreloader]

Have you found this for the hard carbon in the throat of 223's where cleaning is done after, on average, 80 rounds?

I know you directed that question at Bryan but I did want to add something from personal experience. When shooting 75-80gr 223 loads with what you blokes call Varget I get a fairly quick hard carbon build up. This is in factory Tikka barrels. If I don't keep on top of it with abrasives I start getting pressure signs. I think that abrasives are far more necessary (even in smaller calibers) in factory barrels than they are in good quality custom barrels.

 

[JFrank]

Does a 6 BR-A constitute a high performance cartridge ?

 

[hoz53]

First post in a long time!

I made this video to show the cleaning method I've converged on, but more importantly it explains WHY this cleaning is beneficial for high performance rifles that cause accelerated wear to the barrel.

One of the reasons there's so many different cleaning methods is that the cleaning requirements of rifles vary. Obviously you don't clean a 22LR barrel the same as a 22-250, but it's less obvious that the cleaning requirements of two centerfire rifles can be very different depending on how hard the internal ballistic cycle is on the steel. The cleaning method I describe in this video is for "High Performance" cartridges that do such damage (fire cracking) to the steel. Lower performance cartridges that do less damage may have a range of cleaning techniques that work well but as the performance increases with temperature and pressure... the required maintenance gets more specific.

Enjoy!
-Bryan

Thanks Bryan—

 

[nakneker]

Thanks for sharing the video Bryan, your an asset to the hobby!

 

[jackieschmidt]

Does a 6 BR-A constitute a high performance cartridge ?

Not sure who you are directing this question to, but I would say in terms of pure accuracy potential, yes.

But in terms of long range terminal ballistics where velocity, bullet weight, and ballistic coefficients dictate performance, such as in the Rifle that Bryan is using for his demonstration, no.

 

[JFrank]

Not sure who you are directing this question to, but I would say in terms of pure accuracy potential, yes.

But in terms of long range terminal ballistics where velocity, bullet weight, and ballistic coefficients dictate performance, such as in the Rifle that Bryan is using for his demonstration, no.

Thanks,
It was just an open question to the posters on this thread.
I’ve no experience with a 300 Norma so didn’t want to assume or compare, I only know how my BR performs and reacts between cleanings and what routine I go through to maintain accuracy.

Jim

 

[bks22345]

I started using a very similar technique when I was chasing a carbon ring in my 280AI. Only differences being I used the VFG pellets and a lot of Kroil oil in addition to the JB. It worked and I used it in all rifles for a while. Got away from it because I thought it might be too aggressive for normal cleaning (75-100 round F-class type schedule). Maybe I’ll go back to it.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Litz uses very narrow parameters in his claims. For example, this video about abrasive cleaning is specifically only about "high performance" cartridges. It does not apply to most rifles.

Also not using a bore guide "in MRADs" is a very narrow parameter. Nowhere did he say in all rifles. MRADs make up a tiny fraction of all rifles, even rifles used by members of this forum.

Plainly speaking, both of Litz's comments don't apply to hardly anybody at all, just a very few specific rifles and cartridges that most people don't own. So I'm not even sure why he posted that video in the first place. Zero videos posted on his channel in 13 years, and then bam he drops the high performance barrel cleaning video that only applies to a very select few shooters. Interesting.

Consider some of his other claims, with very narrow parameters. Like on barrel tuners. His tests did not show tuners improved precision. But when you look at what his test was, you scratch your head and wonder why his tests totally ignored the manufacturer's instructions and why he made up his own instructions. Since his tests were the "wrong" way to use a tuner, his test showed tuners don't work. A very narrow test that was not meaningful for most tuner users.

 

[jelenko]

For this thread, does MRAD mean multi role adaptive design? If so, how does it relate to using/not using a bore guide?

 

[Evan]

Bryan, I have personal knowledge of what a fast moving cleaning rod being aloud to lay on the bottom of the muzzle end of a barrel can do. I caution shooters to stop that brush or jag the instant it leaves the muzzle.

Since the rod can not be stopped at the throat, a viable means of keeping it off of the lands and grooves is simply common sense.

As Speedy says in his videos, not just any guide will do. It must fit the rod.

I'm in agreement with you Jackie but I wonder if, as benchrest shooters who clean frequently and religiously, we need to worry about these items more. If a guy has a 338 Lapua that he cleans every 200 rounds, and acceptable performance is lost at 3000 rounds; he has only cleaned his rifle 15 times. I clean my rifle no less often than every 50 rounds across a lifespan of 1600 rounds, which means I clean my barrel at least 32 times.

 

[47WillysGuy]

On 12-9, I did a target practice session at our local range putting 39 rounds of Lapua cases loaded with Varget 43.55 gr; and Berger 200.20x projectiles. The gun is a Remington 700 action chambered to a .308 Winchester and has almost 2000 rounds through it. Chronographed loads by Garmin at 2642.2 average FPS (Is this a High performance cartridge?)

I usually spend about a week cleaning the barrel after a shoot: shoot Saturday F-Class competition, start cleaning Saturday evening and finish 6-7 days later. I use Pro-Shot patches and Bore Tech Eliminator for all my barrel cleaning. I wanted to find a process that would reduce the time the gun is being cleaned.

Saturday - Using JB Bore paste, I stroked that barrel with 2 sets of 30 strokes (one stroke is to the muzzle and back to the chamber 30 times). I cleaned the residue out (patches 3,4,5,6) then put the Bore Tech and let it set (patches 7-8).

Sunday - 4 patches, 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. (Patches 9-12)
Monday - 4 patches, 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. (Patches 13-16)
Tuesday - 4 patches, 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. (Patches 17-19)
Wednesday -2 patches, 1 in the morning and 1 in the afternoon. (Patches 20-21)
Patch 21 is satisfactory for a cleaned barrel. There's some copper still in the barrel.

I was hoping that the 60 strokes of JB Bore Paste would do a better job of copper removal. I don't think JB reduces the time it takes to clean the barrel to my standards. May revisit this process later with a bore scope to check out the roughness of the barrel!

What is a "High Performance" cartridge? Is it defined by bullet diameter, amount of powder, chamber pressure, or feet per second?

 

[JFrank]

What is a "High Performance" cartridge? Is it defined by bullet diameter, amount of powder, chamber pressure, or feet per second?

I asked a similar question in post #42, one person responded on post #45 with his thoughts.

wanted to find a process that would reduce the time the gun is being cleaned.

Try Thorroclean on a patch, wrapped around a soft nylon brush.
Cleans great in a short time frame.
Jim

 

[WIB3]

It seems to me that a bunch of people who don’t have the experience want to cast stones. Never have met Brian or have talked with him. I think though that he is knowledgeable about ballistics and long range shooting. I shoot 1000yd BR and would never run a barrel to that round count with out cleaning. Everyone does what they feel is best. I don’t fault anyone for what they do or trying to help others exceed. In ELR that technique might be the norm they shoot extremely large bores and bullets, PPC not the same. If you’re shooting Burger bullets Brian probably deserves a little credit.

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

Litz uses very narrow parameters in his claims. For example, this video about abrasive cleaning is specifically only about "high performance" cartridges. It does not apply to most rifles.

Also not using a bore guide "in MRADs" is a very narrow parameter. Nowhere did he say in all rifles. MRADs make up a tiny fraction of all rifles, even rifles used by members of this forum.

Plainly speaking, both of Litz's comments don't apply to hardly anybody at all, just a very few specific rifles and cartridges that most people don't own. So I'm not even sure why he posted that video in the first place. Zero videos posted on his channel in 13 years, and then bam he drops the high performance barrel cleaning video that only applies to a very select few shooters. Interesting.

Consider some of his other claims, with very narrow parameters. Like on barrel tuners. His tests did not show tuners improved precision. But when you look at what his test was, you scratch your head and wonder why his tests totally ignored the manufacturer's instructions and why he made up his own instructions. Since his tests were the "wrong" way to use a tuner, his test showed tuners don't work. A very narrow test that was not meaningful for most tuner users.

By 'high performance', I'm referring to rounds that generate fire-cracking between cleanings. Not just ELR cartridges like 375; high performance is also 300 Norma, 300 PRC, 6.5CM, 243 Win, etc. Less so 223 Rem, 308 Win, 6PPC, etc. So most cartridges used at long range, I would consider high performance. So that's not a 'tiny fraction of all rifles'.

Bore guides are good for keeping fluids from leaking down around your trigger, bedding, etc. but there's no/minimal fluids used with the cleaning I'm showing, and the MRAD doesn't have traditional bedding or trigger placement. So no, I don't use a bore guide on guns like that because there's no reason to.

As for tuners... I'm not getting into that here except to correct your statement that we didn't follow the manufacturers recommendations. We did that, and more. The thing we did that's not in the instructions, is to see if the instructions result in the same 'best' tuner settings when you repeat the test. In fact the results do not repeat, meaning each time you do the test you find a different setting. This conclusion has been reached by everyone who's tested tuners with statistically significant sample sizes, and checked for repeatability.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

First post in a long time!

I made this video to show the cleaning method I've converged on, but more importantly it explains WHY this cleaning is beneficial for high performance rifles that cause accelerated wear to the barrel.

One of the reasons there's so many different cleaning methods is that the cleaning requirements of rifles vary. Obviously you don't clean a 22LR barrel the same as a 22-250, but it's less obvious that the cleaning requirements of two centerfire rifles can be very different depending on how hard the internal ballistic cycle is on the steel. The cleaning method I describe in this video is for "High Performance" cartridges that do such damage (fire cracking) to the steel. Lower performance cartridges that do less damage may have a range of cleaning techniques that work well but as the performance increases with temperature and pressure... the required maintenance gets more specific.

Enjoy!
-Bryan

Real glad Litz is on our side.

 

[CaptainMal]

Motivated to use my borescope in both of my BRA competition rifles. Then the scrubbing began. Lands were clean past the throat but the grooves showed carbon build-up. All the JB and Iosso brushing I then did still left carbon streaks in the grooves.

Took a drill, smaller brush, short piece of cleaning rod and patches covered with Iosso. Job done. My "fancy" chemicals just do not do the same job that aggressive brushing did.

 

[Joe Salty]

I always ask this Question about bore guides, Do you really think that cleaning rod, is going to do more damage if you say hits the lands as a bullet hitting them with 50 to 60 thousand psi ?
I have always used a bore guide, but I wouldn't be afraid to not us one. Just mark your cleaning rod and you will be fine.
PS. Brian when are you going to make it to PA. World Open? you haven't been there since 2000!

Joe Salt

 

[WIB3]

I always ask this Question about bore guides, Do you really think that cleaning rod, is going to do more damage if you say hits the lands as a bullet hitting them with 50 to 60 thousand psi ?
I have always used a bore guide, but I wouldn't be afraid to not us one. Just mark your cleaning rod and you will be fine.
PS. Brian when are you going to make it to PA. World Open? you haven't been there since 2000!

Joe Salt

Nice point Joe, I would think it would be fantastic for Brian and Jack N to come back next year. I believe that it is going to be epic as far as 1000BR goes. Would love to spend some time around a campfire discussing ballistics with a fellow Penn State Alumni. COFFEE, Ha home made ice cream and prime steaks and seafood over an open fire. Really doesn’t get any better than that.

 

[WIB3]

As far as bore guides go, I will always use one. Different strokes for different folks. As far as breaks go I’m on the fence. I personally prefer nothing. I trust my gunsmith has given me a concentric crown. I understand that with heavy bullets and large case capacity that there are exceptions. I firmly believe that the less interference once the bullet leaves the barrel the quicker it will get to sleep. Just my thoughts and opinions. I shoot 6 Dashers, recoil is not a concern.

 

[BoydAllen]

One of the things that I learned a long time ago is that the "truth" is different for different shooting disciplines. I knew a fellow who was a HM in service rifle, back when that was being shot with M1As. He was also one of the best gunsmiths for those rifles. Knowing that he did not like to be argued with by people who lacked experience in his sport, I listened carefully and only asked questions for better understanding. Given his success, and that of his rifles, I believed that in the context of his particular shooting sport, he had absolute credibility. At the same time I was learning about the details of sanctioned short range group benchrest, also from very qualified shooters and gunsmiths. The realities of those sports are different. If you try to use the truth for one for the other your results will undoubtedly reflect your confusion. I saw how carefully Bryan handles his cleaning rod, and believe him that for his type of shooting that he has not seen any reason to use a bore guide. I have also see how most other shooters use a cleaning rod, which convinces me that they very much do need to use a rod guide. This includes some competitive benchrest shooters. Powders, expansion ratios, rates of fire, and cooling intervals have a lot to do with the rate at which barrels heat check. My only experience with this sort of thing came when I did not pay enough attention to my barrel heat shooting a .220 Swift, that became slightly checked at the beginning of the freebore. After that I took more care and it did not get any worse. Bottom line, if Bryan tells me that for his type of shooting, with the types of calibers he is referring to, that the way that he cleans has proven to be necessary, I absolutely believe that truth.