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Reducing SD by trying different powders and primers in 223AI

I have applied Neolube 2 to the inside of case necks and noticed ES drops significantly. Loads that shot ES of 40-50 dropped to single digit to low teens. As others have said, Even this doesn't always make groups smaller. I have had to change powders in some cartridges. I've also had situations where I'd have to change from extruded to ball powders to tighten groups. My 22XC was one such case. Couldnt get it to settle down no matter what extruded powder I tried but A-2520 shot groups under .1 with TAC close behind
 

AR's aren't accurate

"AR's aren't accurate" "223AI won't feed from a magazine" "Just sell it and get a (insert person's favorite brand here)..." DPMS Oracle stock uppper, lower, and bolt. $459.00 McGowen SS 1:8 .223AI. $328.00 TacFire forend. $47.25 Magpul fixed stock. $54.32 Hogue grip. $19.95 BCM oversized...
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Had to dig a bit, this might help.
 
I just ordered a couple of smaller bushings for my 223AI die (245 and 246) and a mandrel die and mandrel (222). I will try using a mandrel before seating and see how that goes.
 
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About loaded round runout.. many say it's not really an issue, but 7 thou is quite a bit.
I found the single biggest improvement I've had in reducing runout in loaded rounds came from deburring the inside of case necks whether I'd trimmed the cases on that loading cycle or not.

I noticed that in many cases, running a 30° countersink by hand inside the case mouths removed a small bit of material even on cases that hadn't been trimmed. Not all the way around, but there were a few small high spots or "bumps" in many of them.

As soon as I started doing that extra step, my runout dropped noticeably. I rarely measure it any more, but that's what I found.

Another thing to watch for with 223 is the formation of donuts at the base of the necks. I use Lapua brass for my target loads, maybe it's more prone to donuts than other brands.
If you feel a slight bump in seating pressure as the boat tail enters the case body, there's a good chance you've got donuts forming.
I don't neck turn, they're coming from the walls in the case body moving ahead as the cases get resized and trimmed.

I check for them in my fired cases (before re-sizing) by sliding the shank of a #1 drill bit into the case. It should slide freely through the neck with no resistance. If it hangs up near the shoulder junction.. donut.
Your chamber may vary from mine, so you might need a different size "gauge". #1 works for me.
 
Dwubyd said:
I have 1.5 thou neck tension, so that is covered.
Click to expand...
How did you arrive at this number and what do you mean by covered ?
Did you test different bushings sizes ?
Have you tested cases without annealing for a few firings ?
 
Dwubyd said:
Sherm, what I meant by "neck tension is sorted" is that when I got the rifle it came with 300 brass that had neck tension of around 6 thou. I bought a larger bushing to reduce the neck tension to 1.5 thou, which should eliminate that as a potential problem
Click to expand...
This is what he replied to Jfrank when I asked the question.
 
Not in 223, but I have found better ES and SD with primer change, powder change, and in the case of my 6.5-06 by going to neck turned Lapua Brass. The Lapua brass resulted in single digit numbers while other cases hovered in the high teens and 20's.
 
JFrank said:
How did you arrive at this number and what do you mean by covered ?
Did you test different bushings sizes ?
Have you tested cases without annealing for a few firings ?
Click to expand...
I arrived at 1.5 thou by measuring the OD of the neck with the bullet seated versus before seating the bullet. So it is the amount the neck expands when a bullet has been seated. What I mean by "covered" is 1.5 thou neck tension is the right amount, so I can conclude that this is not contributing to ES or poor group sizes. However, since then I have realised that I am getting my neck tension by sizing the outside of the neck. So as neck wall thickness varies from case to case and around the neck of each case, the internal dimensions of the neck will be variable and inconsistent. This will undoubtedly lead to variations in velocity. Hence the move to a neck sizing mandrel as the last step before seating the bullet.

I have not tested different bushing sizes. I have ordered a couple of smaller bushings, but that is more so I can size the case then use a mandrel to size it back up ready for seating a bullet.

I have not tested cases without annealing.
 
Turpentine said:
Not in 223, but I have found better ES and SD with primer change, powder change, and in the case of my 6.5-06 by going to neck turned Lapua Brass. The Lapua brass resulted in single digit numbers while other cases hovered in the high teens and 20's.
Click to expand...
That is a lot of difference between Lapua brass and other brass. Did the neck turning improve the ES of the Lapua brass?

Also, from the experiences that people are sharing, aiming for single digit SD in a 223 is over ambitious and a bit unrealistic. I will be happy if I can get ES down to 30, then I can start focussing on group sizes.
 
Dwubyd said:
I arrived at 1.5 thou by measuring the OD of the neck with the bullet seated versus before seating the bullet. So it is the amount the neck expands when a bullet has been seated. What I mean by "covered" is 1.5 thou neck tension is the right amount, so I can conclude that this is not contributing to ES or poor group sizes. However, since then I have realised that I am getting my neck tension by sizing the outside of the neck. So as neck wall thickness varies from case to case and around the neck of each case, the internal dimensions of the neck will be variable and inconsistent. This will undoubtedly lead to variations in velocity. Hence the move to a neck sizing mandrel as the last step before seating the bullet.

I have not tested different bushing sizes. I have ordered a couple of smaller bushings, but that is more so I can size the case then use a mandrel to size it back up ready for seating a bullet.

I have not tested cases without annealing.
Click to expand...
What we normally do in long range Benchrest to confirm or eliminate a bushing size to determine the correct neck tension for a particular application is to test on paper by either side by side comparison or a series of charge ladders using different amounts of hold regardless of ES.
Measuring the OD of a loaded round is correct starting point but you really need to test to ensure you’re on the right bushing.
You may not see a difference at 100-200 yards but when you increase the distance to 500 and beyond it will be apparent.
once you arrive at the correct bullet hold , a .001 variation in neck wall won’t make much difference.
If it did the guys that win with no turn necks would turn the brass that they currently do not.
 
As Jfrank says dont assume annealing brass and a certain bullet hold is the answer without testing either one.
In my LR hunting I run nothing but Lapua and ADG some no turn some I have to turn and do not anneal the brass and I size with bushing only and brush the inside of my necks with a stiff nylon brush right before I put the powder charge in the case and seat the bullet.
The only brass I anneal is my 17 and 20 cal brass I shoot the crap out of at sage rats.
 
miningshawn said:
I also struggled with high ES/SD using 223AI for PRS. It didn't really start to matter until 500 yards. I had single ragged holes of 10 shots at 100, but solid over and unders beyond 500.

I tried quite a few different things, but what changed my numbers the most was switching to....... CFE223. Heresy. Ball powder metered much more exactly in the small cases. I have always used CCI BR2's.

I would say the next biggest factor was neck turning. I also use Starline, and turning necks mitigated some of my ES and SD problems.

Finally, I like to load big batches. I practice and shoot them same load. Batches that sat for a couple of months had inconsistencies compared to freshly loaded ones. I started using graphite lubrication as part of my reloading practice when seating. I try to only keep a few hundred loaded anymore.

Good luck! Don't stop trying. It is tough with these itty-bitty cases.
Click to expand...
CCI BR2's are large rifle primers. Every 223 case I have ever seen uses small rifle.
 
First get Lapua or better yet Alpha brass. For bench shooting go Alpha no preping or turning bs use cci 400 or better yet 450s. Use high quality 80 gr bullets then try AR comp. my sd's are 10-13 CFE also gave me sd's in the mid teens.
 
Swapping primers and you get different E.S and S.D.
Maybe I missed it but has anyone mentioned primer weight outliers causing high E.S.?
 
Dwubyd said:
I am reloading a 223AI PRS rifle and my next challenge is to reduce my ES/SD. I have ES of up to 50 fps (5 shots) and SD of 15-20. I notice that Mr Freedom Seed recommends sorting out SD by focusing on combustion - things like powder, primer, neck tension and case volume. I am using ADI and Starline brass. He says don't even worry about grouping until you have combustion sorted out. I have 1.5 thou neck tension, so that is covered.

My next step is to try different primers (currently using Federal 205, going to try CCK BR4, Rem 6 1/2 and Rem 7 1/2). I will also try a different powder (ADI Benchmark 2).

I welcome suggestions on what steps to take to reduce ES/SD.
Click to expand...
DO NOT try 6 1/2 they are not for the pressures of 223 or 5.56
They are for 30 carbine
 
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