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Deer gun a 223?

For Me and My Family, Deer and Antelope Cartridges, START at, the .243 Winchester / 6 MM Rem !
After giving my grandson, my .243 Win., Tikka,..
I Went to, a 6.5 Creedmoor, as I DON'T want to, "Have to" Pass Up,.. ANY quartering shots, out to, 500 Yards !
Having shot, a Large Mule Deer doe with, a .22-250 years back, and Trailing it for about, 150 Yards, NO,. Thanks !!!
Yup,. I was a dumb, Young & a "Know it All" at, One Time, also ! ( Thought that, the Sun Rose / Set with, the .22-250 at, One Time, in my 20's,. LOL ! )
I'm Worried about, the Young Folks, thinking that, a .223 is, a "Great" Deer Killer and IMO, It's,. NOT except for, seriously Experienced Hunters,.. Who "Can",. PASS,.. on Game !
AND,.. After walking SEVERAL Miles and finding, a "Good" Buck,.. Who wants to,. Do,.. THAT ??
 
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I’m still not buying it on a good buck that’s hot on a doe at 250+ yards, I would feel undergunned.
AGREE with, This ^^^^
My grandson has Killed 2, Large bodied, Mule Deer ( Desert, Draw Tag ) with his .243 Win. Tikka at 227 yds and the last One, a Heavy horned, 4 x 5, @ 30+ inches wide at, 268 yards.
Both, DRT with, 87 gr. H-VLD Bergers at, 3,165 fps and very, LOW,.. Recoil.
The First Buck, a 3 x 4 was shot by Him at, 12 y/o AFTER 5 Trip's out to the Desert,. practicing, Field Positions on, 10 inch, Steel Plates ( Recoil with, the .243 win. / 87 gr. Bullets, has NEVER Been, an issue for, Him ! )
 
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Only read the first page, but like most internet blow hards, I'll toss my 2 bits in ;)

223 for deer depends on the size of deer you're hunting. I live in Indiana, and we have some really nice bucks that normally field dress at 200 lbs or more. IMHO a 223 is NOT big enough for those deer. Our does typically dress out between 110 lb and 130 lb, with yearlings being in the 70lb to 100 lb range. A 223 would be more than enough for the yearlings, and probably enough for all of our does so long as you're using a good bullet. If the caliber/cartridge is of questionable capability, I tend to favor a good monolithic projectile to ensure I get good expansion AND good penetration. In regards to a 223, I'd say that a monolithic that's at least 60gr would be fine. If you're going to go with a traditional cup-and-core bullet, I'd want something designed for controlled expansion, and I'd look at something in the 69gr to 77gr range.

If you're just looking for something different, and want to reach 200 yds, a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel would both do that very easily.
 
Well since zero failures have been reported the 223 must be a great deer slayer after all. Just like nobody loses money Las Vegas - everyone breaks even or won enough to pay for the trip. Just ask ‘em.

Come to think of it, the 223 is way too much gun. I know many hillbillies who fed their families by poaching white tail deer with a 22 magnum. Can’t argue with that success.
 
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I’m still not buying it on a good buck that’s hot on a doe at 250+ yards, I would feel undergunned.

But you wouldn't be. That is the point. Whether you "feel" that way or not, the evidence is there that if you use a good bullet, you can reliably take very large whitetails with a 223 out to 400+ yards.

Only read the first page, but like most internet blow hards, I'll toss my 2 bits in ;)

223 for deer depends on the size of deer you're hunting. I live in Indiana, and we have some really nice bucks that normally field dress at 200 lbs or more. IMHO a 223 is NOT big enough for those deer. Our does typically dress out between 110 lb and 130 lb, with yearlings being in the 70lb to 100 lb range. A 223 would be more than enough for the yearlings, and probably enough for all of our does so long as you're using a good bullet. If the caliber/cartridge is of questionable capability, I tend to favor a good monolithic projectile to ensure I get good expansion AND good penetration. In regards to a 223, I'd say that a monolithic that's at least 60gr would be fine. If you're going to go with a traditional cup-and-core bullet, I'd want something designed for controlled expansion, and I'd look at something in the 69gr to 77gr range.

If you're just looking for something different, and want to reach 200 yds, a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel would both do that very easily.

That is a fallacy. A .223 with a good bullet will create a 14-18" long wound channel of 6-10" in diameter, which is enough for the largest game animals, including elk. There is plenty of evidence of this if you do a bit of research. A deer doesn't grow armor as it gets older. If it will kill a yearling, it will kill a 6.5 year old buck, whether that buck is in FL or Iowa.

Also, "controlled expansion" will give you penetration and exits at the expense of wound channel diameter, thereby decreasing the internal damage and prolonging the time for the animal to die.
 
A well placed expanding 223 bullet would kill a deer. I want to kill an antelope someday with a 223 WSSM. As of now, will probably use a Sierra 65gr. Game King. Running into a barrel twist issue or would be using a 70 gr. Barnes TSX.
 
I have not tried either of the bullets mentioned in the following article from Sierra, but thought it could add to the discussion.


For my first-hand experience, I've used the Speer 70 grain SP bullet in my 223 on the deer / hogs in south Texas. It kills very effectively when used within common sense distances and accurate shot placement is emphasized.

I've also killed a truck-load of hogs with the cheap Hornady 55 grain soft point bullet shot out of my .223.
 
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OK what would be the recommender bullet for 223 on deer?
ty Don
ps my go to is a 7mm mag w 150 and Nosler B T Hunting. I would just like to try a different gun.
If you have no conscience that you may not be able to find it if wounded, then go for it.

IMO, use something more adequate

 
If you have no conscience that you may not be able to find it if wounded, then go for it.

IMO, use something more adequate


That can be said for any cartridge. A bad shot is a bad shot. Period. If you are that worried about losing animals, then you shouldn't be hunting as stuff happens.

I have had more rodeos with large magnums than smaller chamberings. Mainly because most people think that the "margin of error" is bigger if the bullet is bigger, so they take marginal shots expecting magical results. Or they don't ever practice with it because it beats the hell out of them on the bench, so they can't shoot accurately in the field. In all of those cases, a smaller, lower recoiling rifle would have been a better choice for them.
Testing has proven that smaller, heavy for caliber, fragmenting bullets actually produce a larger wound channel than larger, controlled expansion, bullets.

So please, stop the hyperbole. Any modern rifle system that is properly set up will kill whitetails within the confines of the ability of the shooter and rifle system.

Is a .223 a 800 yard rifle system. No. If you want that, you need to step up to a chambering that will add velocity, such as a 22 Creedmoor.
 
That can be said for any cartridge. A bad shot is a bad shot. Period. If you are that worried about losing animals, then you shouldn't be hunting as stuff happens.

I have had more rodeos with large magnums than smaller chamberings. Mainly because most people think that the "margin of error" is bigger if the bullet is bigger, so they take marginal shots expecting magical results. Or they don't ever practice with it because it beats the hell out of them on the bench, so they can't shoot accurately in the field. In all of those cases, a smaller, lower recoiling rifle would have been a better choice for them.
Testing has proven that smaller, heavy for caliber, fragmenting bullets actually produce a larger wound channel than larger, controlled expansion, bullets.

So please, stop the hyperbole. Any modern rifle system that is properly set up will kill whitetails within the confines of the ability of the shooter and rifle system.

Is a .223 a 800 yard rifle system. No. If you want that, you need to step up to a chambering that will add velocity, such as a 22 Creedmoor.
Some of what you say is accurate (IMO).

A 7x57 will kill an elephant. Would that be your choice ?

An extreme example, but the message is still the same.
 
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But you wouldn't be. That is the point. Whether you "feel" that way or not, the evidence is there that if you use a good bullet, you can reliably take very large whitetails with a 223 out to 400+ yards.



That is a fallacy. A .223 with a good bullet will create a 14-18" long wound channel of 6-10" in diameter, which is enough for the largest game animals, including elk. There is plenty of evidence of this if you do a bit of research. A deer doesn't grow armor as it gets older. If it will kill a yearling, it will kill a 6.5 year old buck, whether that buck is in FL or Iowa.

Also, "controlled expansion" will give you penetration and exits at the expense of wound channel diameter, thereby decreasing the internal damage and prolonging the time for the animal to die.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but its incomplete. The first thing I'd point out is that a .223 will NEVER produce a 6" diameter wound cavity that is 14" long. It CAN produce a temporary stretch cavity that is as much as 6" in diameter near the entrance, but that's not an actual wound cavity. Even with more commonly accepted calibers and cartridges, the wounding to the lungs (VERY soft tissue) is generally only 3"-4" in diameter max.

Next, regardless of caliber, bullet penetration varies significantly depending on what the bullet hits (ie bone, muscle, soft tissue). I haven't done much testing on .224 projectiles, but based on the testing I have done with them, the testing I've done on other projectiles, and the video information that's readily available on line, I'd say a perfectly broadside shot from a .223 with an expanding cup and core projectile of sufficient weight and proper design that only hits 1 rib on entry will likely travel the 14" to 18" you've described. Put that same projectile through a shoulder blade and a rib, penetration is significantly reduced. I've seen 55gr expanding projectiles penetrate less than 8" when fired from a 223. If the projectile hits the rib at a slight angle, there is a significant chance that the bullet will be deflected off its intended path to some degree. I've seen a 110gr Vmax from a 300 BO deflect as much as 30 degrees after hitting nothing more than a single rib on entry, and then only penetrate a total of 8". Thankfully, that shot took out a lung and the liver and was fatal, but I've seen bigger deer live a long time (hours) and go a LONG way (miles) with a lung and liver shot.

Lastly, unless you're doing head shots, a .223 isn't adequate for 400yds regardless of what size deer your shooting at. By the time a 62gr bullet reaches 250 yds, it has lost approx. half of its KE meaning that the projectile is going to struggle to expand much on soft tissue. Even if it hits a rib and expands, its not going to have much velocity left to do much more than poke a pencil hole through the soft tissue making for a poor blood trail.

If you're hunting southern whitetail, a .223 Rem with a good bullet will do the job out to a reasonable distance. If you're hunting big heavy bucks over a bean field, or a picked corn field, use a more suitable cartridge.
 
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I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but its incomplete. The first thing I'd point out is that a .223 will NEVER produce a 6" diameter wound cavity that is 14" long. It CAN produce a temporary stretch cavity that is as much as 6" in diameter near the entrance, but that's not an actual wound cavity. Even with more commonly accepted calibers and cartridges, the wounding to the lungs (VERY soft tissue) is generally only 3"-4" in diameter max.

Next, regardless of caliber, bullet penetration varies significantly depending on what the bullet hits (ie bone, muscle, soft tissue). I haven't done much testing on .224 projectiles, but based on the testing I have done with them, the testing I've done on other projectiles, and the video information that's readily available on line, I'd say a perfectly broadside shot from a .223 with an expanding cup and core projectile of sufficient weight and proper design that only hits 1 rib on entry will likely travel the 14" to 18" you've described. Put that same projectile through a shoulder blade and a rib, penetration is significantly reduced. I've seen 55gr expanding projectiles penetrate less than 8" when fired from a 223. If the projectile hits the rib at a slight angle, there is a significant chance that the bullet will be deflected off its intended path to some degree. I've seen a 110gr Vmax from a 300 BO deflect as much as 30 degrees after hitting nothing more than a single rib on entry, and then only penetrate a total of 8". Thankfully, that shot took out a lung and the liver and was fatal, but I've seen bigger deer live a long time (hours) and go a LONG way (miles) with a lung and liver shot.

Lastly, unless you're doing head shots, a .223 isn't adequate for 400yds regardless of what size deer your shooting at. By the time a 62gr bullet reaches 250 yds, it has lost approx. half of its KE meaning that the projectile is going to struggle to expand much on soft tissue. Even if it hits a rib and expands, its not going to have much velocity left to do much more than poke a pencil hole through the soft tissue making for a poor blood trail.

If you're hunting southern whitetail, a .223 Rem with a good bullet will do the job out to a reasonable distance. If you're hunting big heavy bucks over a bean field, or a picked corn field, use a more suitable cartridge.

In regards to your first comment, I will concede that I didn't word it correct. It should have read "a 14-18" wound channel of a maximum of 6-10" in diameter". My evidence of this is a small sample size of personal animals and a pretty large sample size of necropsy pictures on the .223 thread on the Rokslide Forum.

What testing have you done with the .223 and other bullets? Just calibrated ballistic gel testing? Animal testing? I am genuinely curious. I really enjoy reading about/watching tests of various things. Testing is how we learn more.

Also, when I say "good bullets", I am generally talking about heavy for caliber bullets that expand reliably down to around 1700 fps. Using that criteria, a 73 grain Hornady ELDM shot with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps is still traveling around 1760 at 400 yards. I don't really care about the energy number. It will provide a good wound channel and kill quickly. Again, this can be seen by reviewing the hundreds of kills shown on the .223 thread.

As for the last comment, I see this very often. What is the actual difference between a "bean field or corn-fed" whitetail and a "Southern" whitetail? The anatomy is the same. It isn't like those beans or corn are creating armor on them. I would say, based on the multiple deer I have killed in the midwest, southeast, northeast, and middle south, that the Northern deer may have a bit more fat, which is going to be concentrated in the brisket, around the kidneys and liver, and in the hams, maybe be a couple of inches wider at the shoulder and a couple inches deeper in the chest, with a bit more muscle in the neck and hams. Not enough to warrant "stepping up" in cartridge size, IMO.
 
In regards to your first comment, I will concede that I didn't word it correct. It should have read "a 14-18" wound channel of a maximum of 6-10" in diameter". My evidence of this is a small sample size of personal animals and a pretty large sample size of necropsy pictures on the .223 thread on the Rokslide Forum.

What testing have you done with the .223 and other bullets? Just calibrated ballistic gel testing? Animal testing? I am genuinely curious. I really enjoy reading about/watching tests of various things. Testing is how we learn more.

Also, when I say "good bullets", I am generally talking about heavy for caliber bullets that expand reliably down to around 1700 fps. Using that criteria, a 73 grain Hornady ELDM shot with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps is still traveling around 1760 at 400 yards. I don't really care about the energy number. It will provide a good wound channel and kill quickly. Again, this can be seen by reviewing the hundreds of kills shown on the .223 thread.

As for the last comment, I see this very often. What is the actual difference between a "bean field or corn-fed" whitetail and a "Southern" whitetail? The anatomy is the same. It isn't like those beans or corn are creating armor on them. I would say, based on the multiple deer I have killed in the midwest, southeast, northeast, and middle south, that the Northern deer may have a bit more fat, which is going to be concentrated in the brisket, around the kidneys and liver, and in the hams, maybe be a couple of inches wider at the shoulder and a couple inches deeper in the chest, with a bit more muscle in the neck and hams. Not enough to warrant "stepping up" in cartridge size, IMO.
For 223, my testing is limited to a little bit of clear ballistics gel from a 22" upper and a few coyotes. "Other bullets" is a lot of 45, 40, 9mm projectiles into clear ballistics gel at speeds ranging from 750 fps to 2600 fps, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 whitetail that I've either field dressed or helped field dress over the past 40 years. We've used archery equipment, shotgun slugs, ball and patch, modern inlines, 44 mag pistols, various hand cannons, and various high powered rifles (.270 Win, 6.5 CM, 6.5 Grendel, 7-08, 308, 300 BO, and others that I've since forgotten about).

On the ballistics side, my testing was done for 2 different reasons. The first was a series of tests with a Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader using saboted 45cal projectiles. At the time I was using an ordinary 250gr SST and pushing it at 2600 fps. I'd shot everything from small yearlings at 20 yds to reasonably sized bucks at 150 yds with "good" results, but I was surprised that the projectile never exited. Prior to buying the savage, I had hit a couple of deer with some 140gr Dead Center (pure lead) projectiles running 2200 fps at the muzzle and they did not maintain their course on impact. I didn't think much of it at the time (2002), but around 2005 I was hearing of guys making good hits on big bucks with the 250gr bullets and not recovering them. I fired every 250gr (2600 fps) and 300gr (2450 fps) projectile I could find into some clear ballistics gelatin. I notice that the 250gr cup and core bullets would frequently want to veer off course after flattening out about 4" into the block where as the 300gr bullets all gave VERY consistent wound channels that were straight and 22" to 24" long (the 250s were 17" to 19" when they stayed in the block). The exception was the 245gr Barnes which also stayed straight and I THINK went closer to 23" deep. I reasoned that if a cup and core bullet totally flattens out (like the 250gr always did) they destabilized and often veered off course in the gel. On a big deer, if the bullet expanded significantly before striking any kind of bone, this could happen on an animal. Even though I never had an issue, I immediately switched to a 300gr SST and have enjoyed pass throughs ever since. The other thing I've noticed is that with the 250gr, there was a LOT of meat damage on the entry side, but not as much on the exit side (bullet and jacket were always laying under the hide) where as with the 300gr I get a lot of meat damage on both sides due to the retained momentum. I still use it for our ML season, but for our firearms season I've gone to a 6.5 Grendel and a 300 BO.

The other ballistic gel tests were done to determine what projectiles expand consistently when fired from the shorter barreled pistols that are common today. My wife had bought me a 45 Shield against my advice. Turns out I love it. I don't recall the 9mm and 40 info, but if you're using a short barreled 45ACP, you REALLY need to use something that fires a Barnes DPX projectile. Of the 50 rounds that I fired that were loaded with one of these projectiles, most of it was through denim covered gel, and all 50 expanded and gave adequate penetration. The ONLY other thing that came close was Critical Defence which I only tested 10 rounds of. 5 in bare gel, 5 in denim. They performed well, but only expanded to just under 5/8". Not terrible, but that's not a lot of expansion for a .452 bullet.

When I'm talking about shooting deer in a bean or corn field, I'm talking about shooting them at farther distances. Shots in the woods are generally under 100 yds, but its pretty easy to reach out past 300 yds when sitting over the edge of a large field. This doesn't, or shouldn't apply to most hunters. I'd estimate that 80% of the deer hunters I've met struggle to hit a pie plate at 150 yds with a centerfire rifle. I'm not sure why that's the case, but it is. For me, 200 yds and under is a boring run of the mill shot that requires very little skill or ballistics knowledge/experience. I'm not saying that to brag, I'm just giving it as a reference point. If I'm setting on the edge of a field that's 800 yds long x 500 yds wide, I'm going to be set up to effectively reach half of the field. No one said that a .223 is a good option for this scenario, but you had mentioned 400 yds and I think that number should be cut almost in half to ensure the bullets impact velocity/momentum/KE are high enough that the bullet performs as intended. I'm concerned that the lower velocity are farther distances can result in inconsistencies in performance depending on what bone structure is impacted on entry. I will concede that there could be a few projectiles that happen to be optimally designed for this application and would work well at farther distances, but I'm not aware of those. If I were looking for something like that, I'd probably look into an expanding monolithic from Maker Bullets. They, along with Cavity Back use a softer copper alloy that expands and lower impact velocities. I use CBs 105 MKZ in my Grendel and run it at 2800 fps. I had a clean pass through on a mature buck at 297 yds quartering hard away from me. I'd estimate well over 30" of penetration which was enough to put a nice size hole in his heart before exiting through a rib just in front of the far shoulder. For me personally, if a big buck is an option, I would want at least a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. The margins the give do not make up for inaccurate shot placement. Rather, they increase the potential shot opportunities.
 
I ain't sitting out in the Michigan rain and snow and sideways 20mph wind for 15 days straight waiting for that monster buck with a widdle ol 22 cal in my lap. I don't care how premium the bullet is.

We only get 15 gun hunting days in Michigan. I'm going to use the rifle I can shoot the most consistent and accurate with using a bullet that has the most lethality and forgiveness. My intent is one rifle and one load to cover every condition or human error in the field. The only time this changes is when hunting and stalking in extra thick cover (cedar swamps). Then I use a purpose built rifle that is fast to shoulder, open sights, and has a heavy flat nose bullet. Knowing that my distance to shoot is greatly reduced.

When I sit in the blind or stalk a deer the furthest thing from my mind is my cartridge and load. And that's by design.
 
For 223, my testing is limited to a little bit of clear ballistics gel from a 22" upper and a few coyotes. "Other bullets" is a lot of 45, 40, 9mm projectiles into clear ballistics gel at speeds ranging from 750 fps to 2600 fps, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 whitetail that I've either field dressed or helped field dress over the past 40 years. We've used archery equipment, shotgun slugs, ball and patch, modern inlines, 44 mag pistols, various hand cannons, and various high powered rifles (.270 Win, 6.5 CM, 6.5 Grendel, 7-08, 308, 300 BO, and others that I've since forgotten about).

On the ballistics side, my testing was done for 2 different reasons. The first was a series of tests with a Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader using saboted 45cal projectiles. At the time I was using an ordinary 250gr SST and pushing it at 2600 fps. I'd shot everything from small yearlings at 20 yds to reasonably sized bucks at 150 yds with "good" results, but I was surprised that the projectile never exited. Prior to buying the savage, I had hit a couple of deer with some 140gr Dead Center (pure lead) projectiles running 2200 fps at the muzzle and they did not maintain their course on impact. I didn't think much of it at the time (2002), but around 2005 I was hearing of guys making good hits on big bucks with the 250gr bullets and not recovering them. I fired every 250gr (2600 fps) and 300gr (2450 fps) projectile I could find into some clear ballistics gelatin. I notice that the 250gr cup and core bullets would frequently want to veer off course after flattening out about 4" into the block where as the 300gr bullets all gave VERY consistent wound channels that were straight and 22" to 24" long (the 250s were 17" to 19" when they stayed in the block). The exception was the 245gr Barnes which also stayed straight and I THINK went closer to 23" deep. I reasoned that if a cup and core bullet totally flattens out (like the 250gr always did) they destabilized and often veered off course in the gel. On a big deer, if the bullet expanded significantly before striking any kind of bone, this could happen on an animal. Even though I never had an issue, I immediately switched to a 300gr SST and have enjoyed pass throughs ever since. The other thing I've noticed is that with the 250gr, there was a LOT of meat damage on the entry side, but not as much on the exit side (bullet and jacket were always laying under the hide) where as with the 300gr I get a lot of meat damage on both sides due to the retained momentum. I still use it for our ML season, but for our firearms season I've gone to a 6.5 Grendel and a 300 BO.

The other ballistic gel tests were done to determine what projectiles expand consistently when fired from the shorter barreled pistols that are common today. My wife had bought me a 45 Shield against my advice. Turns out I love it. I don't recall the 9mm and 40 info, but if you're using a short barreled 45ACP, you REALLY need to use something that fires a Barnes DPX projectile. Of the 50 rounds that I fired that were loaded with one of these projectiles, most of it was through denim covered gel, and all 50 expanded and gave adequate penetration. The ONLY other thing that came close was Critical Defence which I only tested 10 rounds of. 5 in bare gel, 5 in denim. They performed well, but only expanded to just under 5/8". Not terrible, but that's not a lot of expansion for a .452 bullet.

When I'm talking about shooting deer in a bean or corn field, I'm talking about shooting them at farther distances. Shots in the woods are generally under 100 yds, but its pretty easy to reach out past 300 yds when sitting over the edge of a large field. This doesn't, or shouldn't apply to most hunters. I'd estimate that 80% of the deer hunters I've met struggle to hit a pie plate at 150 yds with a centerfire rifle. I'm not sure why that's the case, but it is. For me, 200 yds and under is a boring run of the mill shot that requires very little skill or ballistics knowledge/experience. I'm not saying that to brag, I'm just giving it as a reference point. If I'm setting on the edge of a field that's 800 yds long x 500 yds wide, I'm going to be set up to effectively reach half of the field. No one said that a .223 is a good option for this scenario, but you had mentioned 400 yds and I think that number should be cut almost in half to ensure the bullets impact velocity/momentum/KE are high enough that the bullet performs as intended. I'm concerned that the lower velocity are farther distances can result in inconsistencies in performance depending on what bone structure is impacted on entry. I will concede that there could be a few projectiles that happen to be optimally designed for this application and would work well at farther distances, but I'm not aware of those. If I were looking for something like that, I'd probably look into an expanding monolithic from Maker Bullets. They, along with Cavity Back use a softer copper alloy that expands and lower impact velocities. I use CBs 105 MKZ in my Grendel and run it at 2800 fps. I had a clean pass through on a mature buck at 297 yds quartering hard away from me. I'd estimate well over 30" of penetration which was enough to put a nice size hole in his heart before exiting through a rib just in front of the far shoulder. For me personally, if a big buck is an option, I would want at least a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. The margins the give do not make up for inaccurate shot placement. Rather, they increase the potential shot opportunities.

Thank you for the information.

When I was stationed in Charleston from 1998-2001, I killed just over 70 deer on the Weapons Station using two different CVA muzzleloaders (50 cal) using 240 grain .44 cal Hornady XTP bullets in a green sabot (can't remember now who made those). Shots ranged from 7 to 159 yards. All were complete pass throughs at varying angles, although none of the angles were too hard. This was before I started doing detailed necropsies, so all I really understood at the time were that the bullet hit hard, drove through, and either put them down right there if I hit high shoulder, or left a decent blood trail if I put it in the crease.

In 2008, I started doing a lot more detailed studying of the wound channels and internal damage I was getting with my bullets and broadheads. This was due to the fact that I lost a pretty good buck in 2007 on a shot that felt really good. Load was a 140 grain Nosler Accubond out of a 7-08 with a muzzle velocity of 2725. Shot was just over 150 yards across a swampy area, so no obstructions between me and the deer. I didn't find any blood for the first 40 yards and then followed decent blood for about 80 yards before I lost it. Did a grid search with a buddy, but never found the deer. This was also before tracking dogs were common.

Over the years, what I have found is that while the "premium" bullets (monos/bonded/partition-style) always offer good penetration, the wound channels and internal damage that they provide is always quite a bit less than a standard cup and core or match bullet. I have had some match bullets that didn't upset and ended up tumbling through an animal, but since going with tipped match bullets exclusively (TMK or ELDM) I haven't had an instance were it has happened. This has done two things for me. One, it has actually increased my "margin for error". A "premium" bullet will drive through an animal leaving a central wound channel. Rarely will it have secondary wound channels, unless you are using something like a Hammer bullet, which sheds its petals. Even a Partition, where the nose will usually shed off won't have those pieces deviate from the main channel. A bullet that fragments will send stuff everywhere, so even a less than optimal placement will result in pieces of bullet in necessary organs. I get that it isn't for everyone, but I have also moved from "save the most meat" to "get the animal dead ASAP" over the years. The second thing it has done is actually lengthen my effective range while not having to step up to a bigger cartridge. A "premium" bullet requires about 2000 fps to effectively upset every time. If using a mono, it is more like 2200 fps. For a tipped match bullet, or one with an effective hollow point, that number is in the 1600-1800 fps range. So, when using the same cartridge, I can usually get another 100-200 yards or more of effective range. Yes, I could step up to a larger cartridge, but that means more recoil. More recoil means it is harder to spot my shots, follow up shots are harder (if necessary), and shootability goes down. My experience mirrors yours in that a lot of hunters that I know are not really good shots. I attribute this mainly due to lack of practice. Many times when I ask them why they don't shoot more, they usually respond with something to the affect of "This gun hurts me after shooting it too much". And before all of you He-men come out of the woodwork claiming that if you can't handle the recoil you shouldn't be shooting, your are deluding yourself if you think that you can magically get better at something if you don't practice. It has also been proven on more than one occasion that lower recoil results in better accuracy (look up the Army studies in the late 50s early 60s that led them to switching out to the 5.56 round). So, by using a bullet that upsets at lower velocities I can stay in the recoil range that allows me the best shooting performance while also extending the distance at which I can effectively kill. Win-Win.
 

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