Help Me Design a Tuner Test

[whiddengunworks]

There are many opinions on how to tune a tuner. Many come down to this: Do I turn the tuner a little or a lot?

I'd like to run a test in our tunnel to try and learn something about the topic. I'm happy to share the results on this forum.

I can throw some ammo and time at this, but this isn't an unlimited budget DARPA project or anything, so please be reasonable in your suggestions. So far I have used my own rifles and have done some testing using large movements of the tuner, so I feel like I already have some data on that.

Here's my first blush suggestion for a test of moving the tuner in small increments. 1. I'll start with the current setting and shoot 10 rounds. 2. I'll move the tuner to current +1 and current + 2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. 3. I'll move the tuner to current -1 and current -2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. This will give me 5 groups of 10 shots each. I'll repeat the test 4 times and do this in the same order. This will require 200 rounds of ammo. It will give us a look over 5 increments on the tuner.

Anything I'm overlooking? Other suggestions?

 

[VLNBYR]

There are many opinions on how to tune a tuner. Many come down to this: Do I turn the tuner a little or a lot?

I'd like to run a test in our tunnel to try and learn something about the topic. I'm happy to share the results on this forum.

I can throw some ammo and time at this, but this isn't an unlimited budget DARPA project or anything, so please be reasonable in your suggestions. So far I have used my own rifles and have done some testing using large movements of the tuner, so I feel like I already have some data on that.

Here's my first blush suggestion for a test of moving the tuner in small increments. 1. I'll start with the current setting and shoot 10 rounds. 2. I'll move the tuner to current +1 and current + 2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. 3. I'll move the tuner to current -1 and current -2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. This will give me 5 groups of 10 shots each. I'll repeat the test 4 times and do this in the same order. This will require 200 rounds of ammo. It will give us a look over 5 increments on the tuner.

Anything I'm overlooking? Other suggestions?

This will work fine for small changes of 1 or 2 clicks. The key is how you analyze your data. I would add large changes of 1 full turn and 2 full turns at the same time. And after all this come back a week later and repeat in order to see if you get similar results. There is a reason tuner testing remains controversial after many years and thousands of tests.

 

[boltfluter]

Personally I would do 3 shots per movement until you see a pattern worthy of a closer look. 3 should be enough to see the trend. At least in my opinion. Good shooting!
Paul

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I would be excited to see the results of the described test. Would this be rimfire or centerfire?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

There are many opinions on how to tune a tuner. Many come down to this: Do I turn the tuner a little or a lot?

I'd like to run a test in our tunnel to try and learn something about the topic. I'm happy to share the results on this forum.

I can throw some ammo and time at this, but this isn't an unlimited budget DARPA project or anything, so please be reasonable in your suggestions. So far I have used my own rifles and have done some testing using large movements of the tuner, so I feel like I already have some data on that.

Here's my first blush suggestion for a test of moving the tuner in small increments. 1. I'll start with the current setting and shoot 10 rounds. 2. I'll move the tuner to current +1 and current + 2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. 3. I'll move the tuner to current -1 and current -2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. This will give me 5 groups of 10 shots each. I'll repeat the test 4 times and do this in the same order. This will require 200 rounds of ammo. It will give us a look over 5 increments on the tuner.

Anything I'm overlooking? Other suggestions?

I use this method and target that I designed - with tuner at zero setting zero scope for POA/POI
I then shoot 3 shots at zero setting then 3 shots moving 5 adjustments at a time. I skip the 3rd shot if the first two do not touch each other.
Here is an example of a tuner test with a factory barreled Anschutz 54 1413 (Harrell's tuner lightened to 4.5 oz.) this was in 2019 this same year at the Mesa center it produced a 11.86mm 10 shot group off a Pappas rest. the same 90 tuner setting is still being used today. it resides in Colorado and is shot in local matches for the last 4 years.

Lee

 

[lal357]

not as experienced as most of y'all but i shoot a 5 shot group no tuner then 3 shot groups start at zero then moving it out 1 full number turn( Harrell's tuner) ie 100, 200 300 ect then look at the groups . find the best group and shoot 1/2 way in-between the numbers and reshoot and repeat both sides to see groups.
i will repeat this the next time i go out to the range to verify.

 

[efoleyjr]

PM sent

Ed

 

[Eudean]

I used the Hopewell procedure for my Harrel rimfire tuner. Yes, it might use a lot of ammo some would think. But it's just a one time procedure that narrows down a range of numbers to tune at. You spend money to get a tuner, then initial testing cost for ammo shouldn't be an issue if you really want results.
Don't forget that tuner weights can be changed also. It takes effort and time but the best results always take that.
People these days need to realize that a lot of things in life aren't solved pushing some fictional "easy button".

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

John, you're thinking is right. Gotta establish increment values before anything else. Simply no other way to put it...if you don't know the value of each change, you're just guessing.
If you wanna discuss this in detail I'd be happy to talk with you by phone. I'll be in and out a bit today but will call you back ASAP.
I'll pm my contact number and hope to hear from you. --Mike Ezell

 

[TRSR8]

There are many opinions on how to tune a tuner. Many come down to this: Do I turn the tuner a little or a lot?

I'd like to run a test in our tunnel to try and learn something about the topic. I'm happy to share the results on this forum.

I can throw some ammo and time at this, but this isn't an unlimited budget DARPA project or anything, so please be reasonable in your suggestions. So far I have used my own rifles and have done some testing using large movements of the tuner, so I feel like I already have some data on that.

Here's my first blush suggestion for a test of moving the tuner in small increments. 1. I'll start with the current setting and shoot 10 rounds. 2. I'll move the tuner to current +1 and current + 2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. 3. I'll move the tuner to current -1 and current -2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. This will give me 5 groups of 10 shots each. I'll repeat the test 4 times and do this in the same order. This will require 200 rounds of ammo. It will give us a look over 5 increments on the tuner.

Anything I'm overlooking? Other suggestions?

You have the potential to reduce time/ammo waste.
For instance….are you aware several builders of world class rifles utilize pre- set tuner settings that are ultimately very close to where the tuner ends up if not there, already.
you have zero to lose by starting out there.
with a Harrels/ PQP and a barrel in the 24”-26” range, start @ 200 and go out slowly, try 250, same approach, 185, again same.
I’d be willing to bet, around those general areas you come up with some solid settings without going through the entire range.
Some of these guys have put in years resulting in that methodology.
this from guys that have built as well as shoot rifles that have won much, including establishing world records

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

I like your original plan. I really like the 10 shots per test. The only thing I would change is something really easy to do. After you load your ammo, put the fifty rounds in a bag and mix them a bit, then just draw them out one by one when you shoot the test. Just in case there could be something subtle going on with the die or components to change things when you are loading the ammo.

Edit: Later the OP clarified this would be rimfire…

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I like your original plan. I really like the 10 shots per test. The only thing I would change is something really easy to do. After you load your ammo, put the fifty rounds in a bag and mix them a bit, then just draw them out one by one when you shoot the test. Just in case there could be something subtle going on with the die or components to change things when you are loading the ammo.

I have no opinion about mixing the ammo up except to say that if I intentionally loaded different charges in a centerfire and mixed them up on purpose to shoot a match, I'm pretty sure everyone would get a kick out of me doing that. Lol! Why would rf be different? PC, right?

 

[MarkS]

There are many opinions on how to tune a tuner. Many come down to this: Do I turn the tuner a little or a lot?

I'd like to run a test in our tunnel to try and learn something about the topic. I'm happy to share the results on this forum.

I can throw some ammo and time at this, but this isn't an unlimited budget DARPA project or anything, so please be reasonable in your suggestions. So far I have used my own rifles and have done some testing using large movements of the tuner, so I feel like I already have some data on that.

Here's my first blush suggestion for a test of moving the tuner in small increments. 1. I'll start with the current setting and shoot 10 rounds. 2. I'll move the tuner to current +1 and current + 2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. 3. I'll move the tuner to current -1 and current -2 and shoot 10 rounds at each place. This will give me 5 groups of 10 shots each. I'll repeat the test 4 times and do this in the same order. This will require 200 rounds of ammo. It will give us a look over 5 increments on the tuner.

Anything I'm overlooking? Other suggestions?

If you have your large movements best of the best you are on the right track. How far have you gone in and out with the tuner? I have found that 2.5 to 3.5 full turns are the best tune for both my guns

I use a EC V2 tuner on my 2 Bergara B14R. I start with the tuner flush with the muzzle and turn toward the shooter. The EC V2 tuner will make around 4 full turns ( 200 marks ) at 50 yds I shoot 3 shots on zero, then turn 5 marks, 3 more shots and so on. If the first 2 shot don't touch I move on to the next one. You will start seeing clusters of good groups.

I am a long range shooter. I pick the best of the best, and go to 200yds then I go 2 marks at a time each way for about 10 marks, looking for the best vertical.

Good luck

 

[whiddengunworks]

Thanks all for the input.

Keith this will be rimfire.

Lee, I have full respect for your method. I'll admit that I'm a little worried about using just 3 shots even to narrow down a tuner setting. Just for curiosity, have you ever shot your test then repeated the test to see if you get the same results?

I should have added that this will be shot with one of my prone rifles with an Uptagrafft tuner/bloop tube on it, so it's not the common style tuner like Harrell's and others.

Mark I've shot the tuner through the whole range. It goes from 0 to 500 and I've shot in increments of 50. Settings 50 and 100 looked good and I played between those with 63, 75, and 87. I ended up at 100.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thanks all for the input.

Keith this will be rimfire.

Lee, I have full respect for your method. I'll admit that I'm a little worried about using just 3 shots even to narrow down a tuner setting. Just for curiosity, have you ever shot your test then repeated the test to see if you get the same results?

I should have added that this will be shot with one of my prone rifles with an Uptagrafft tuner/bloop tube on it, so it's not the common style tuner like Harrell's and others.

Mark I've shot the tuner through the whole range. It goes from 0 to 500 and I've shot in increments of 50. Settings 50 and 100 looked good and I played between those with 63, 75, and 87. I ended up at 100.

John,

3 shots are adequate to find a setting. once I do I shoot the same setting but with 5 -shot groups using as many different lots as possible at that setting. it has to be able to shoot known good lots and be acceptable with the outcome.
but the acid test so to speak is shooting 2-3 shots and let the rifle sit for several minutes with a chambered round and then shoot the remaining shots for a 5 shot group. if that setting is correct for that barrel/tuner combination it will go into the group and not be a flier. the rifle has to be able to wait for a condition to shoot. since I shoot RFBR the conditions not always allow for a shot to check POI (warmup)

As far as the tuner it doesn't matter what make as long as you can repeat the results.

Lee

 

[Straightshooter1]

I use this method and target that I designed - with tuner at zero setting zero scope for POA/POI
I then shoot 3 shots at zero setting then 3 shots moving 5 adjustments at a time. I skip the 3rd shot if the first two do not touch each other.
Here is an example of a tuner test with a factory barreled Anschutz 54 1413 (Harrell's tuner lightened to 4.5 oz.) this was in 2019 this same year at the Mesa center it produced a 11.86mm 10 shot group off a Pappas rest. the same 90 tuner setting is still being used today. it resides in Colorado and is shot in local matches for the last 4 years.

Lee

What I see in your target is the same sine wave as this from gunsandgunsmithing:


And it still seems to me that the best place to be with a tuner is at the node of the wave.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What I see in your target is the same sine wave as this:
View attachment 1581225

And it still seems to me that the best place to be with a tuner is at the node of the wave.

That's my centerfire variation of tuner test but the two are very similar and show everything you need to know to tune a rifle.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

What I see in your target is the same sine wave as this from gunsandgunsmithing:
View attachment 1581231

And it still seems to me that the best place to be with a tuner is at the node of the wave.

That is good that you know what to look for. a few shooters seem to make it difficult for them when trying to find a setting. to keep things simple anyone who ask me on what they should be accomplishing when setting a tuner, I tell them it is all about bullet exit timing. all you are doing is using weight to adjust that exit and you want it to be at the top and right of the barrel's movement.

Something my mentor earnest (Marty Hammond) from RFC had explained to me more than 10 years ago.

Lee

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

I have no opinion about mixing the ammo up except to say that if I intentionally loaded different charges in a centerfire and mixed them up on purpose to shoot a match, I'm pretty sure everyone would get a kick out of me doing that. Lol! Why would rf be different? PC, right?

Yeah they would all laugh at you.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yeah they would all laugh at you.

Yep! I get the pc aspect but otherwise, I don't see any difference rf vs cf in this regard. PC is there with or without a tuner and with both rf and cf. I truly feel people make this much harder than it is, mostly by randomly moving the tuner in some large increment, without a known reason for whatever increment they use. Doesn't matter what tuner...ya gotta establish increment values. Without knowing what to expect, you're simply moving and hoping. That's not what I'd call a methodical approach but hey, if it works for you, don't change a thing.

The test target above, albeit cf, shows top and bottom of bbl swing, how many marks from top to bottom as well as how many between extreme in to out of tune and group shapes that I look for. Those shapes are predictable and repeatable! That's the basis for how I use a tuner. Without that predictability, it would not work. It's not only about the smallest group on the test either, as one thing confirms the other making it very statistically significant without firing thousands of rounds and such as that. For example, tuner setting 0 looks good but I would not use that setting as the next couple of groups do not display what I look for nor is it at top or bottom of the swing. There are reasons for those somewhat random small groups but they are typically very tune sensitive or just won't repeat...err, hold tune. I like setting 2 or 10 of that test with 2 being at top and 10 at bottom. In SR CF, I'd probably go with 10 because the next couple of groups are absolute textbook as far as what I look for along with poi being at bottom confirming being at an anti-node, which IS what we want. See how one thing confirms the other? For LR and RF, I'd go with 2 because of PC and not having control of ammo velocity ES with rf. PC can only happen on the upswing. I like 10 because it speaks to me, loud and clear, more so than 2 but will be more sensitive to ES of the ammo and at distance. Those things are of little consequence in SR CF but they are in RF and LR.

One last thing...the test also tells me which way to move the tuner if I see specific group shapes as tune goes away. See 10, 11 and 12. Beautiful, textbook example of what I look for and preach...for about 15 years now. 2,3 and 4 are NOT a wide spot. They are an example of the gun creeping out of tune but still shooting just well enough to lose.