Win-Mag .458 Questions. Help a Novice

[Coyotefurharvester]

I wouldn't suggest a new to reloading person start with reduced(below recommended starting charge) loading any cartridge. A long eye relief variable scope and a good stand up bench/bags, plus starting charge weights using a low for cartridge weight bullet. The last thing the op needs, ftf or a bullet lodged in the bore. As you become accustomed to recoil and reloading your fired cases will provide you with the knowledge and material base to develop loads for accuracy/hunting. Also attaching a weighted bag(a few pounds of sand) to the front sling stud and letting it hang a few inches off the ground in front of the bench will reduce recoil and require you to pull the rifle into your shoulder.

 

[Laurie]

VV Tin Star is another option.

Viht has dropped this powder, so the only chance of finding any is through secondhand or old overlooked stock in a gunshop.

Of the special loads powders for such reduced load applications, I think only Accurate-5744 and Lovex D060 survive recent product range changes. D060 is made in the Czech Republic and sold in the US by Shooters World under the name SW Buffalo Rifle.

(D060 was sold by the old Accurate Arms Co. as AAC-5744 in the US until ca. 2002 when Western Powders bought AAC out and then changed its suppliers.) It was originally designed for smokeless loads in large calibre originally black powder rifle cartridges typified by 45-70 and a host of other 19th century 38, 40 and 45 calibre BPCR designs, but has a secondary use for reduced pressure and performance loads in more modern high pressure cartridges.

I'd agree though with @Coyotefurharvester that playing around with handloading reduced loads will be unwise unless the OP has some experience in this activity, or can find loads data from a very reputable source.

 

[Orr89rocz]

You have to learn to reload if you want reduced power loads.

AA2015 fills up the case well and does not produce a ton of velocity for my barnes 300 ttsx. 68.5 grains is almost touching the base and produces 2100 fps. I may try a 300 gr hornady hollow point but may need to use more powder.

H4198 also works well with lower charges but its hard to find. 62.5 grains worked well for me and produced 2200 fps. Ive been down in the 50’s grains as shown in hornady load data and 1850-1900 fps range but accuracy was mediocre and sd was high. Probably needed a case filler/dacron

Reloader 7 is good too for abit heavier bullets. 64 grains and a speer 400 soft point is 2050 fps or so.

 

[nakneker]

To the OP. I’m guessing by your questions you’re new to the hobby/sport. Starting off with a rifle chambered in .458 win mag is a recipe for developing some bad habits, like a flinch. You may already have experience with smaller rifles, so excuse me if my assumption is off base. Lots of good advice in this thread already, no need to repeat much of it, the reduced loads will be hard to find in factory ammo for the 458 mag. Watch a few videos on shooting big bore rifles, the advice of avoiding shooting in the prone is wise. Below is a link to a scope I use on a few of my big rifles, they are tough, hold their zero and are bright with a large field of view. Perfect for that rifle, they also offer it in a one inch tube for about a third less money. Post #2 answered the most important question, that rifle will only shoot 458 win mag ammo, avoid using anything else even if it has 458 in the title/name.

If we lived closer I’d gladly help you get started with this project. If you visit or are a member of local gun club I’d wager there are guys there that would mentor you to get you started….. just an idea.

VX-3HD 1.5-5x20 CDS-ZL Illum. FireDot Twilight Hunter

The VX®-3HD 1.5-5x20mm delivers legendary performance and extreme clarity in an incredibly tough, lightweight package. It's the perfect workhorse for those close to mid-range shots.

www.leupold.com

 

[sandwarrior]

Winchester Model 70 Classic Super Express .458 Mag -New Haven

Hi All,

I need to preface that I am not familiar with these types of rifles and bought this on a whim(Dirty Harry used one in the first film)
So pardon this Texan if these are dumb questions:
-Would threading the barrel for either a muzzle break or a suppressor destroy the value of this rifle?
-what time of scope(budget) would you recommend ? Will the recoil cause the scope to go off zero?
- what in the world is that mid-site and how does that work?
-does this gun only shoot .458 mag? Will it shoot .458 socom? .458 Lott?

Thanks again everyone now if I can only find ammo

1. Threading the barrel will reduce the collector value of the rifle. It will quite possibly increase the value of your health as recoil on these is quite strong.
2. These are often shot with open sights. However, a 1-6X scope is used for those who prefer it. Look and ask when you buy for long eye relief. And buy quality that won't knock your scope out of zero.
3. That 'mid sight appears to be a base for an 'Express' type sight. That is what you would use probably if you opted for open sights.
4. USE ONLY .458 WIN MAG AMMO IN THIS RIFLE. UNTIL YOU LEARN MORE ABOUT WHAT CARTRIDGES CAN BE INTERCHANGED, DO NOT USE ANY OTHER ROUND IN YOUR CHAMBER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE BARREL. MAKE SURE THAT NOT ONLY THE NUMBERS MATCH, BUT THE VERBIAGE OF THE CARTRIDGE AS WELL.

 

[DallasRepub]

Threading the barrel will reduce it's value. Leave it as is. Shoot it with iron sights, for the most part, as it is really a short range, dangerous game rifle.
And do contact DSC for info on reduced loads and good information regarding the 458 Win. Shoot only 458 Win ammo, don't attempt others.
And get a set of dies and reload your own ammo, including reduced loads. Find some Trail Boss powder and work from there.
Learn to handle heavy recoil also.

Ok thank you this is a great post!

 

[451whitworth]

Cast bullet loads are the quick and cheap way to reduced recoil. Obviously you have to handload your ammo. I have two .458 Win Mag rifles and haven't shot a jacketed bullet out of either in years. A 350-400 grain cast bullet at 1800-1900 fps is comfortable for "fun" shooting. I only shoot cast bullet 500 grain 2150 fps ammo occasionally to remind me how much that kicks.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Shoot is before deciding on threading the barrel, the recoil isn't crazy on a well designed rifle/stock. Big game rifles shouldn't have things hanging of the muzzle...

For 100ish yards work on bigger animals id stick a Trijicon RMR 2 MOA on it and if your just shooting at paper maybe something in the 1-6 range

 

[Fire Dog]

Just thought of a couple other points. Are you hunting in Africa with it? The PHs hate muzzle breaks but you can always practice with one and remove/rezero when hunting. Is it a pre or post 64? I would not alter a pre 64 but might be tempted with a post 64 if you can't get the reduced loads which are my first choice

Definitely do NOT alter the rifle in any way if it is Pre-'64... You will kill the value...
That being said finding a club that shoots "Big Game Rifle" will be a plus and their advice will be invaluable as to loading for that portable cannon...
As an 18 year old I had a 12ga side by side that I bought for $25 that had a major dent in one barrel so I just sawed it off to about 21" and used to fire "Pumpkin Balls" that a friend made for his 69 cal musket and they were a perfect fit for the 12ga. I could break a clay target with either barrel at 40' so that was where the barrels "registered". Lots of fun!
I did know a local postman {inSane Diego} that had a .458 Win that he used for hunting elephants regularly and when I said that there were NO elephants in Southern Calif. he replied "See what a good hunter I am..."
RIP Hog Jaws... You were a guiding light.

 

[Konrad.INc]

As someone who has hunted Africa and killed buffalo, 458 Win mag is a great caliber. I have a Ruger 77 Tang Safety in 458 Win Mag. If your hunting DG, an Aimpoint red dot will probably survive longer than a Trijicon as sometimes the recoil will kill them over time, just depends on what your doing. Having said that, for most people, a 1-4X Leupold VX-3 will work fine. Sight it in at 100yds and leave it alone. All my shots on DG in Africa have been under 50 yds and the scope has never come off 1X while I'm there.

Nothing gets the blood running like being in the thick brush staring down a heard of 30-40 Cape Buffalo and taking a shot on a big dugga boy from you knees at 26 paces. Puts a whole new perspective on someone or something is going to die right here and now!

Having said that, Heres some of my favorite loads.

Lower power fun/practice/deer hunting loads
Sierra 300gr HP/FP Part number 8900
Velocity 2300-2500 FPS
Pretty much any relatively fast powder works for this, H335 is good because its cheap and avalible, Try about 70Gr to start with and work up from there. You wont have much recoil and itll shoot 2" groups at 100yds with iron sights. This combo works good on deer and elk too.

DG Load
500gr Barnes TSX, 500GR Cup Point Solid, 500Gr Hornady DGX or DGS Bullets
71gr Varget
2100-2150fps
This load will kill anything on the planet, and will beat up the shooter as well. Shoots 2" groups at 100yds with iron sights. Appx 5000ft-lb of muzzle energy in a 10-12lb rifle without a muzzle brake is more than most can handle.....but itll drive a 500gr solid through 4-5ft of muscle and bone to reach the vitals as well.

To most people looking to buy a nice Winchester adding a brake will certainly lower the value, it might save your shoulder and keep your retina from detaching though.....so whats it worth to you is the better question.

 

[outasite`08]

I remember reading a book where a guy shot trap with one…..

What were the targets? 747`s

 

[Orr89rocz]

Lower power fun/practice/deer hunting loads
Sierra 300gr HP/FP Part number 8900
Velocity 2300-2500 FPS

2500 gets abit snappy imo. Keeping it around 2200-2300 is comfortable. Benchmark has great case fill and min load 74 gr will do 2400. Accurate 2015 excellent case fill and will do 2100-2200. Very comfortable. Very accurate with barnes 300 ttsx

 

[TTE]

Just thought of a couple other points. Are you hunting in Africa with it? The PHs hate muzzle breaks but you can always practice with one and remove/rezero when hunting. Is it a pre or post 64? I would not alter a pre 64 but might be tempted with a post 64 if you can't get the reduced loads which are my first choice

I asked if clients had a removable muzzle break. If they said no .... I kindly asked them to hunt with someone else.

To the OP .... if you shoot full power loads .... put a death grip on the stock with both hands so it does not jump out of your hands. Then you can adjust as needed.

It's not killer recoil, but probably more than what you are a custom to.

 

[XTR]

I asked if clients had a removable muzzle break. If they said no .... I kindly asked them to hunt with someone else.

To the OP .... if you shoot full power loads .... put a death grip on the stock with both hands so it does not jump out of your hands. Then you can adjust as needed.

It's not killer recoil, but probably more than what you are a custom to.

The first time I lit the fuse on a full power 45-70 running 350s out of a 24“ barrel at 2400fps I became aware that this wasn’t like bottleneck 30 cals. The 458 is … more.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

It’s the gun you let your buddy’s shoot 1st.

 

[joshb]

Fellow Texan to fellow Texan: That’s a nice gun. Please don’t butcher it. If you reall want to shoot the “big bore”, get a Winchester Miroku 45/70. I have one and it’s a fine rifle. I can shoot factory loads all day long because they’re mostly loaded light because of the old trap doors and liability concerns. I have hand loaded much hotter loads for it, shot them and wished I hadn’t because they made my shoulder go black and blue. These days, I only shoot the lighter loads. Lever guns are iconic Western firearms and an 1886 Winchester by Miroku can well satisfy that big bore itch.

 

[SteveOak]

A low power variable scope is the way to go. The scope and mount also add weight to the rifle which is helpful to tame recoil, and make better shooting easier.

For reduced loads a fluffy, fast burning powder works best. It is too bad Trail Boss isn't made any more, but VV Tin Star is another option. You are going to be on your own somewhat in terms of load development, but a good start would be to look at reduced load data for 45/70 and cowboy action shooting.

In terms threading it, a suppressed 458 Win Mag would be awesome. You would have to measure the barrel profile to see there is enough meat on the barrel for threading though.

I had a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag that I ended up selling as I did not reload at the time. It is a neat but certainly niche cartridge.

VihtaVuori Tin Star has been discontinued.

 

[XTR]

Fellow Texan to fellow Texan: That’s a nice gun. Please don’t butcher it. If you reall want to shoot the “big bore”, get a Winchester Miroku 45/70. I have one and it’s a fine rifle. I can shoot factory loads all day long because they’re mostly loaded light because of the old trap doors and liability concerns. I have hand loaded much hotter loads for it, shot them and wished I hadn’t because they made my shoulder go black and blue. These days, I only shoot the lighter loads. Lever guns are iconic Western firearms and an 1886 Winchester by Miroku can well satisfy that big bore itch.

My Win-Mir is a 45-70 highwall with a 24” barrel and a shotgun style recoil pad…. like you, I’ve dabbled in loads suitable for T-Rex and small block Chevys, these days I have hunting loads for that rifle that are far less punishment.


To the original poster, the reason we mention the 45-70 here is that the 458 WinMag and the 45|70 are very similar. Both are straight (ish) walled cartridges with designs that are over 100 yrs old.(in the case of the 45-70 closer to 150 yrs) The 45-70 is a 2.1“ rimmed case and the 458WM is a 2.5” belted case. While not necessary both can be loaded to levels that will bruise and actually can cause retinal separation. As noted in a post above, the 458 was designed to take “dangerous game” in Africa.

 

[Fire Dog]

My Win-Mir is a 45-70 highwall with a 24” barrel and a shotgun style recoil pad…. like you, I’ve dabbled in loads suitable for T-Rex and small block Chevys, these days I have hunting loads for that rifle that are far less punishment.


To the original poster, the reason we mention the 45-70 here is that the 458 WinMag and the 45|70 are very similar. Both are straight (ish) walled cartridges with designs that are over 100 yrs old.(in the case of the 45-70 closer to 150 yrs) The 45-70 is a 2.1“ rimmed case and the 458WM is a 2.5” belted case. While not necessary both can be loaded to levels that will bruise and actually can cause retinal separation. As noted in a post above, the 458 was designed to take “dangerous game” in Africa.

Used to load my Remington rolling block 45-70 with cast 500gr bullets and go out to the desert and shoot it at about 1500 yds… You could have the rifle down off your {well kicked} shoulder before seeing impact…
Didn’t start off very fast but it didn’t slow down much either…!

 

[robster7]

Mag-na-port is an option worth considering to reduce muzzle rise and some recoil…
It works for me…