Why is it called a "Boattail"?

[HappyHellfire]

I like old nerds! Keep on truck in’!!!
“1. You are absolutely correct about the drag vortices behind the bullet. As best we can figure, about half or more of the drag on a supersonic bullet is due to this "base flow" phenomena.”
Thank you for that!

“BRL tried it in the 1960's”
Who’s that, why did he give up? Seems like the “holy grail” of ballistics! Solve it and you’ll make millions!

“Designing a bullet that is both "streamlined" for subsonic (pistol) and "isentropic"”

I would forget subsonic and focus on the other. Subsonic is a niche market and pistols don’t need it.

Forge on! I think you should work on the first design more, using a lead core type bullet.
This one , except I would mimic the nose shape for the base.View attachment 1567438

That is literally one of my first prototypes!

 

[jlshaw]

Hi, I'm Dr. John Stutz and I teach ballistics to engineers and scientists. I also have a new bullet design (AerospikeBullets.com).

The boattail bullet design was by all accounts an accident. At the turn of the 20th century, the mass production of bullets began. Spitzer bullets were the first to put a chamfer on the base of the bullet to make it easier for a machine to put the bullet into the case around 1901. During WW1, the accuracy of the boattail became apparent during the sniper battles across the trenches.

There have been multiple studies using computer simulations and live fire testing to find the optimal angle and length of a good boattail. The results depend upon the muzzle velocity and the shape of the nose or ogive of the bullet. This subject became important to me while I was developing the Aerospike base to replace the boattail. One thing my studies never dug up was the name. Why is it called a boattail?

Oldest reference to boat-tail I have yet found is
Title: New Army Bullet, Deadliest Yet Made, Adds 30 Per Cent to Machine Gun Barrage Zone
Is Part Of
The New York Times, 1923-01-29, p.1
Description
WASHINGTON, Jan. 28. -- The work of army experts since the war has produced a new bullet for use in rifles and machine guns which is expected to add enormously to the effectiveness of these weapons. The new bullet is known as a "boat-tail" because of a six-degree taper at the tail.
Publisher
New York, N.Y: New York Times Company

I couldn't get a full text copy of the article outside the NYT paywall.


Also found

The Arrival of the Boat-tail Bullet Author(s): Edward C. Crossman
Source: Scientific American , Vol. 133, No. 6 (DECEMBER 1925), pp. 384-385 Published by:
Scientific American, a division of Nature America, Inc.
Stable URL: https:/ /www.jstor.org/stable/ 10.2307/24979156

The SciAm article refers to boattail bullet design going back to swiss designs predating WW1.

 

[HappyHellfire]

Oldest reference to boat-tail I have yet found is
Title: New Army Bullet, Deadliest Yet Made, Adds 30 Per Cent to Machine Gun Barrage Zone
Is Part Of
The New York Times, 1923-01-29, p.1
Description
WASHINGTON, Jan. 28. -- The work of army experts since the war has produced a new bullet for use in rifles and machine guns which is expected to add enormously to the effectiveness of these weapons. The new bullet is known as a "boat-tail" because of a six-degree taper at the tail.
Publisher
New York, N.Y: New York Times Company

I couldn't get a full text copy of the article outside the NYT paywall.


Also found

The Arrival of the Boat-tail Bullet Author(s): Edward C. Crossman
Source: Scientific American , Vol. 133, No. 6 (DECEMBER 1925), pp. 384-385 Published by:
Scientific American, a division of Nature America, Inc.
Stable URL: https:/ /www.jstor.org/stable/ 10.2307/24979156

The SciAm article refers to boattail bullet design going back to swiss designs predating WW1.

That is some pretty good detective work. I know that the boattail was developed before WW1 to make loading the bullets into the cases easier. One guy earlier in the thread made the connection that the cars in the 1910's had fishtails called boattails and that is probably where the term came from.

 

[jlshaw]

That is some pretty good detective work. I know that the boattail was developed before WW1 to make loading the bullets into the cases easier. One guy earlier in the thread made the connection that the cars in the 1910's had fishtails called boattails and that is probably where the term came from.

Thanks.
It took about five minutes of detective work checking some online documents through a university library. The SciAm article was long on opinion and short on usable information. That's about par for that source.

BRL, through DTIC, has published a lot of research. Most of the documents I found have lots of experimental results but few references.

My sense is that the term simply was created to describe the bullet's shape using terminology that was readily understandable to nearly anyone.

 

[1911nut]

That is some pretty good detective work. I know that the boattail was developed before WW1 to make loading the bullets into the cases easier. One guy earlier in the thread made the connection that the cars in the 1910's had fishtails called boattails and that is probably where the term came from.

Or since those boats were named boattails first ….

and the boat tail cars were in the late 1920’s. Long after bullets we’re called boat tails.

 

[Tim Slater]

That is some pretty good detective work. I know that the boattail was developed before WW1 to make loading the bullets into the cases easier.

It was a French invention I believe. 8mm Balle D introduced both a spitzer and a boat tail all in a monolithic bullet back in 1898.

If I remember the later US M1 bullet was influenced by (if not an outright copy of) the Swiss GP11, after practical experience in WW1 found the original 06 pattern 150gr flat base had a limited range for MG barrages compared to Balle D and .303 Mk 7.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

where the hell is the tuner guru ? MIA

Just enjoying this and skipping on by. See how that works?

 

[Dave M.]

Just enjoying this and skipping on by. See how that works?

No reason for a tuner guru to be involved in this discussion as far as I’m concerned. But for what it’s worth I will be shooting the groups with these bullets on a rifle with a tuner. I also have another competition 6.5CM rifle that is extremely accurate that does not utilize a tuner.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The smart jump into the bullet business should start with a 6mm projectile. Especially if a person’s first plan on possibly achieving that business goal was to tout their new bullet design on this particular website.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No reason for a tuner guru to be involved in this discussion as far as I’m concerned. But for what it’s worth I will be shooting the groups with these bullets on a rifle with a tuner. I also have another competition 6.5CM rifle that is extremely accurate that does not utilize a tuner.

Just reading and minding my own. Carry on.

 

[HappyHellfire]

The smart jump into the bullet business should start with a 6mm projectile. Especially if a person’s first plan on possibly achieving that business goal was to tout their new bullet design on this particular website.

That is one of my biggest problems is to figure which direction to spin my wheels. I have some research money from my university that I was planning on using to buy a Mann Barrel setup but I have to decide which caliber to choose. I was thinking about just going 30 caliber with the new 300 PRC. Are you thinking 6mm would be better?

 

[HappyHellfire]

where the hell is the tuner guru ? MIA

OK, I catch a lot of shit around here for showing my ignorance but it is honestly the best way to cure it.

How the hell does a barrel tuner work? I just heard the term when I got on here and started looking them up. They seem very similar to what we used to call a yaw inducing device. We would put them at the end of the barrel to induce a large aerodynamic jump out of the barrel to increase the epicyclic motion of the bullet to make it easier to see with a high speed camera.

I'm guessing these are slightly off center cylinders that you screw into the end of you gun so that you can slightly induce a "jump" to counteract your guns natural "jump"? Is it more complicated that that? Maybe
I should start a new thread talking about the math behind aerodynamic jump?

 

[quest450]

he should be here shortly.....he just can't help himself

 

[jimmymac]

he should be here shortly.....he just can't help himself

All I wish is that you two would keep whatever this is between yourselves. Maybe make a phone call and hash out whatever it is that forces you to poke Mike in the eye on any number of threads instead of showing your ass here in public.

 

[quest450]

why don't you take a chill pill and relax, taking things too seriously is bad for your health

 

[jimmymac]

why don't you take a chill pill and relax, taking things too seriously is bad for your health

I’m fine. I don’t need a pill. The third grade shit you propagate with Mike goes back a long time and serves no purpose other than stirring the pot. Is it possible for you to just cease and solve this in a grown up manner? Good grief.

 

[divingin]

That was a thing we did in the 70's Speer 148 grain swagged hollow base wad cutters. Usually for snub nose 38's. I recall the lead was very soft. Cant vouch for the performance

I've shot quite a few swaged lead 148 HBWC's backwards from my S&W Model 52 (not always intentionally - they're easy to load backwards without catching them.) Accuracy-wise, they pretty much land in the same place as correctly loaded bullets (certainly no difference with my level of precision.) Don't know about terminal performance, as I've never shot anything living with one. 1980's rumor was that it was a great defense projectile. No idea if that's true or not.

 

[Dave M.]

Just reading and minding my own. Carry on.

Figured as much Mike. I know the expert will step in when needed.

 

[Dave M.]

OK, I catch a lot of shit around here for showing my ignorance but it is honestly the best way to cure it.

How the hell does a barrel tuner work? I just heard the term when I got on here and started looking them up. They seem very similar to what we used to call a yaw inducing device. We would put them at the end of the barrel to induce a large aerodynamic jump out of the barrel to increase the epicyclic motion of the bullet to make it easier to see with a high speed camera.

I'm guessing these are slightly off center cylinders that you screw into the end of you gun so that you can slightly induce a "jump" to counteract your guns natural "jump"? Is it more complicated that that? Maybe
I should start a new thread talking about the math behind aerodynamic jump?

View attachment 1568081

That is super crude picture. No single post could easily capture what a tuner is and how it works.

 

[WSnyder]

I'm guessing these are slightly off center cylinders that you screw into the end of you gun so that you can slightly induce a "jump" to counteract your guns natural "jump"?

No they are not an off center cylinder, they are concentric and not designed to induce a “jump”.

Since no one really knows exactly what’s going on much argument usually ensues. I’d say mby a simplistic answer is that the tuner simply changes “tunes” where the bullet exit from the barrel occurs. The exact where’s, how’s, whys are???