Request of all you experienced belted case loaders

[BoydAllen]

Often when one guy tells a new loader something, with all of the sometimes contradictory information on the internet including YouTube, it is hard for him to decide who to believe. What I am looking to get here is multiple source that will by their volume reinforce a point that needs to me made about setting FL dies for belted case. It will require the sacrifice of on old ugly case, that needs to be in fired condition. I want you to tell us what the caliber is, measure and record what the shoulder to head dimension is, and then set your FL die according to the directions that are commonly included with FL dies. Raise the ram, turn the die down until it contacts the shell holder. Lower the ram. Turn the die an additional eighth or quarter turn and then lock it down. I am trying to show by multiple examples how much shoulder bump will result. Please give us your results as replies to this thread. Thanks.

 

[46and2]

I do not have measurements that you are asking for.
I will tell you that virgin belted magnums shoulder grows up to .010" to .017" on the first firing.
There's no way in hell that I am going to follow the instructions that tell me to set the die a touching the shell holder.
I've loaded for multiple 300wm, 7mm rem mags, 270 wby mags, 264 win mags, 338 win mags. I use a headspace comparator to measure my shoulder bump when sizing, usually. 002".
If a guy didn't have a HS comparator he could start the die out long and size down a 8th turn at a time until the brass chambers without much resistance.

Tonight I'll try to ruin a piece of brass for the measurement.

 

[K22]

I do not load belted cases but have helped other to do so (300 Win Mag). Wilson did extensive research and development on this issue and their results are published in the Case Gauge Instructions for Belted Calibers which provide guidance for reloaders on how to size belted cases to prevent excessive stretching.

If you PM me, I can mail it to you if you provide your address. You may also be able to access this on the net, www.lewilson.com. Their phone number is 509-782-1328 (they may you a copy upon request)

 

[358WCF]

Hi Boyd,

The only 2 belted cases left in the arsenal. I used the Hornady .400 headspace comparator bushing for all measurements. Range of 5 pieces of brass for all measurements except the resized per instruction #s (screw in til touch & another 1/4 turn). Only willing to possibly screw up 1 piece of brass.

FWIW... I set headspace with the shoulder, not the belt. Loads are stout & case life is very good. Belt may be a backup on the 300, but the FL die stays off the ram. There is slight contact on the 358.

358 Norma Mag-not a factory chamber
new factory ammo= 4.173- 4.175"
fired cases= 4.192-4.192"
(PPU 300 WinMag brass reformed)
sized= 4.182"

300 H&H- M70 pushfeed from a limited run late 1980s.
new WW factory ammo= 4.240-4.244"
new WW brass= 4.250-4.259"
new Hornady brass= 4.255-4.257"
fired WW= 4.296-4.297"
sized WW= 4.2615

Later... Found some orphaned brass that's been boxed away for a while.

264 WinMag M70 pushfeed sporter
WW fired= 4.159-4.160"
sized= 4.142"

7 RemMag Mauser custom
new WW= 4.128-4.130"
fired WW=4.144"
sized= 4.132"

338 WinMag M70 pushfeed sporter
RP fired=4.146-4.147"
sized= 4.129"

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Don’t need to waste a case to tell folks… it’s a lot! Don’t do it! Lol

Have loaded for many years on multiple 300 win mags, 7mm Rem Mags, 6.5 Rem Mags, 338 Win Mag, and a 358 Norma mag. Always set up die on the shoulder of a “3X” fired case to bump .002”-.004”. Setting up a die as per included instructions will definitely yield excessive headspace and eventually lead to case head separation on the belted mags.

 

[RickKr]

I also use the shoulder for setting the headspace rather then the belt (Wby 257 Mag), but also use Reloading Technologies Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die in conjunction with the FL die.

 

[Dkk37058]

I usually fire the case then use a full length die and resize it but stop short of the shoulder but enough to hold the bullet and fire the case 2 more times this way to blow the shoulder out to match the chamber then use a headspace gauge and resize the case to push the shoulder back a couple of thousands to keep from over sizing the case.
I used the term push the shoulder instead of bump the shoulder just in case Guffy is still around ( Ha Ha)

 

[spaniel]

Those instructions are garbage unless you don't care about case life and want your reloads to fit every gun chambered in that round. Take a fired case and set the shoulder back 2 thou for that same gun. Doesn't matter if it's shouldered or not.

 

[Dkk37058]

Yes I forgot to say I only load for that rifle

 

[hoz53]

Often when one guy tells a new loader something, with all of the sometimes contradictory information on the internet including YouTube, it is hard for him to decide who to believe. What I am looking to get here is multiple source that will by their volume reinforce a point that needs to me made about setting FL dies for belted case. It will require the sacrifice of on old ugly case, that needs to be in fired condition. I want you to tell us what the caliber is, measure and record what the shoulder to head dimension is, and then set your FL die according to the directions that are commonly included with FL dies. Raise the ram, turn the die down until it contacts the shell holder. Lower the ram. Turn the die an additional eighth or quarter turn and then lock it down. I am trying to show by multiple examples how much shoulder bump will result. Please give us your results as replies to this thread. Thanks.

hi Boyd— when you say “ measure the shoulder to head dimension, i dont believe there is a standard device so all measurements you get would be comparable. i could use my sinclair bump gage but it may not be the same as someone elses sinclair bump gage or someone else may use their honady gage which would be completely different or someone else use a gizzy made by some gunsmith that would be different. clear this up for me—- kh

or mabie you meen use a wilson type gage? i dont have one for any belted magnums.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I also use the shoulder for setting the headspace rather then the belt (Wby 257 Mag), but also use Reloading Technologies Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die in conjunction with the FL die.

That die is a good addition for belted mags. I have one as well. But you don’t need to use it every time. Only required if cases start getting tight above the belt. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to use my collet die

 

[BoydAllen]

hi Boyd— when you say “ measure the shoulder to head dimension, i dont believe there is a standard device so all measurements you get would be comparable. i could use my sinclair bump gage but it may not be the same as someone elses sinclair bump gage or someone else may use their honady gage which would be completely different or someone else use a gizzy made by some gunsmith that would be different. clear this up for me—- kh

or mabie you meen use a wilson type gage? i dont have one for any belted magnums.

Some FL dies for belted cases are built so that if you set them by the old touch the shell holder, lower the ram and then tighten an additional eighth to quarter turn and then tighten the lock ring instruction shoulders of fired cases are pushed way back, more than would work for decent case life. Not all are that way, but some are. My point is to measure fired and sized and come up with the difference in those measurements with your tool, not to compare the absolute numbers for the tool reading between different shooters. I want to make reloaders aware of this difference when it comes to FL Dies for belted cases. I already have some data. One friend has a .300 WM die that pushes shoulders back about .015 when adjusted as I mentioned. Another friend has a Redding Type S die for 7mm Mag that is not made that way.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I'll play, TC venture 338 wm. I have a set of Hornady FL new dimension die. My lock ring was set to size for the rifle. Hornady comparator (D) .400 used for measuring.
The lock ring was set, die DIE DOES NOT touch the shell holder.
Brass Rem nickel plated.
2.1490 comparator length sized for the rifle
Die set to touch SH ,following die instructions 2.1285
Difference between instructions and actual rifle chamber 0.0205.

 

[nmkid]

That die is a good addition for belted mags. I have one as well. But you don’t need to use it every time. Only required if cases start getting tight above the belt. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to use my collet die

I use a body die for my belted mag.

 

[BoydAllen]

I use a body die for my belted mag.

The issue is that if you have a die that has to be set high to get the shoulder to head distance right, there can be an area just above the belt that the die does not size, and that has caused issues for some shooters on bolt close effort. The collet type die that sizes just above the belt does not have a shoulder , so it can be set to size right down to the belt. Some time back, a friend had this issue with a .300 WSM and being more than a bit "Scotch" he did not want to spring for a special die so I suggest that he pick up a cheap second hand FL die and cut the top off so that the shoulder was removed and use it for an additional sizing operation. He did, and it worked.

 

[bozo699]

The issue is that if you have a die that has to be set high to get the shoulder to head distance right, there can be an area just above the belt that the die does not size, and that has caused issues for some shooters on bolt close effort. The collet type die that sizes just above the belt does not have a shoulder , so it can be set to size right down to the belt. Some time back, a friend had this issue with a .300 WSM and being more than a bit "Scotch" he did not want to spring for a special die so I suggest that he pick up a cheap second hand FL die and cut the top off so that the shoulder was removed and use it for an additional sizing operation. He did, and it worked.

Boyd,
Larry Willis sells or sold a die built for what you’re needing. I bought one maybe 2008 for a .300 wm worked as advertised
Wayne

 

[BoydAllen]

Boyd,
Larry Willis sells or sold a die built for what you’re needing. I bought one maybe 2008 for a .309 wm worked as advertised
Wayne

Hi Wayne,
I was just explaining an issue. I do not even own a belted magnum, but I want to gather some data because I think that there is a lot of bad advice out there about how to set FL dies and in my limited experience it is even worse advice for some belted magnum dies. IMO this needs to be addressed, and manufacturers need to stop over simplifying die setting procedure, especially with the current cost of brass. Hopefully if several readers do the test that I requested and post their results we will be able to offer a more complete picture. This came up because I am working with a new reloader who has a 7mm RM.

 

[bozo699]

Hi Wayne,
I was just explaining an issue. I do not even own a belted magnum, but I want to gather some data because I think that there is a lot of bad advice out there about how to set FL dies and in my limited experience it is even worse advice for some belted magnum dies. IMO this needs to be addressed, and manufacturers need to stop over simplifying die setting procedure, especially with the current cost of brass. Hopefully if several readers do the test that I requested and post their results we will be able to offer a more complete picture. This came up because I am working with a new reloader who has a 7mm RM.

I’ll try later to do as you requested my friend. Thank you for all you do for this sport.
Wayne

 

[hoz53]

Hi Wayne,
I was just explaining an issue. I do not even own a belted magnum, but I want to gather some data because I think that there is a lot of bad advice out there about how to set FL dies and in my limited experience it is even worse advice for some belted magnum dies. IMO this needs to be addressed, and manufacturers need to stop over simplifying die setting procedure, especially with the current cost of brass. Hopefully if several readers do the test that I requested and post their results we will be able to offer a more complete picture. This came up because I am working with a new reloader who has a 7mm RM.

hi Boyd— here we go— i used some well used remington 7RM fired cases and a sinclair bump gage.

Fired ——- 2.069
Sized—— 2.062
diff———- .007

these were done with a 75 rcbs full length die- expanding rod removed- die adjusted to touch shell holder plus 1/8 turn
—————————————————————————-

i also used a Bonanza full length 7rm die with some different cases- same remington bunch- same procedure

Fired——2.069
Sized—- 2.065
dif——. .004

this was a good little exercise. i really felt the sizing was going to be more than it was. i did it twice with the rcbs as a check. (2 cases) back when i was a kid trying to figure out why i was getting incipient rings on my 7RM brass i could have used some direction from the manufacturers. I think most guys now that shoot and reload a belted magnum know to headspace off the shoulder. still the manufacturers in general could provide better information with their sizing dies.

 

[bozo699]

Boyd,
My findings were much different than Hoz53
So much so it’s kinda scary!… even though it’s just federal brass it’s very uniform and I don’t want to ruin another piece. This brass we made when I worked for ATK for the military 2008ish, I fired it in 2010 it’s .300 wm loaded with 190 Sierra’s . I used a Redding F/L bushing die with expander removed in a Mec Marksman press and a Lee #5 shell holder It measured with Hornaday comparator and a.400 insert
Fired case 2.2910
1/8 turn past touching 2.2720
1/4 turn past touching 2.2705

So as you can see a ridiculous amount!… I’m temped to size another just touching but need to find a regular piece and I think it’s at ranch.
Wayne