Hunter Class Score Competition

[rjtfroggy]

I started shooting this class 5 years ago at age 67, now at 72 it is the first gun I grab when I go to a match.
LHSmith, I was lucky, when I decided to get into HC I had a record holding mentor from Maine to help guide me (still does), and even though we are five hours away from each other the telephone is only an arm's length away.

 

[LHSmith]

Likewise for me as I also had renown IBS Hunter competitors who live close-by - like Roger Gower ('80's), Ken Livengood ('90's), and Vince Pastorella ('70's thru 2010).

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I wonder how many would agree with truly going back to the origins and use actual hunting rifles. The genie is out of the bottle and I suspect most would not want to go back there but I may be wrong.

Just a thought, as I'm not a HC shooter but it's easy to see that the guns in the class have morphed into a very constrained little box, where options are extremely limited. I think it's smart to look ahead and get in front of the scope issue. But throw in one little thing, like no longer being able to get the scopes used...well, that's just how constraining the box is for a HC gun and something's gotta give. Overall, I think the fewer the rules, the better.

I've never felt like cost is the biggest issue. I just don't buy that for numerous reasons but it is a factor. I do think money/prizes/awards is a pretty big factor. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've shown br rifles to people and discuss the game..and invariably they will ask the question...how much money can I win doing this! PRS and just about any game kicks our arse in regard to awards.

That's enough from me, as I don't shoot in HC but just some thoughts from a BR shooter is all. There's a lot that can be done to promote the game over all but there's only a few ways the scope issue can be dealt with. I simply think it's best dealt with sooner rather than later.

 

[JoeDuke]

Al, at the 2023 nbrsa nats, we had several folks put up cash bonuses for class and agg winners. I dont remember anyone waving those hundred dollar bills in the air and dancing in the isles. Course that might be because we are all too old and worn out to dance in the isles. But that also sort of proves my point that we need a way to attract new shooters.

 

[Dimner]

I began shooting Benchrest in the late '90's because my local range had a team in the TCL Postal Matches. My first season was with a 243 Ackley with the variable turned down to 6X. With some excellent mentors (Randy Robinett, Lynn Hansen and Jim Minnig) and a 'smith that liked the challenge (Stan Ware) by the next season that gun had morphed into a real Hunter class rig. From there, I started traveling to registered NBRSA and IBS tournaments in my part of the country and to several IBS and NBRSA National events around the country (New York, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Kansas.....). I added a VFS rig a year or two later. I stepped away in 2013 to return to drag racing. In late 2020, I sold my race operation and put together a VFS gun. Now for the 2024 season, I've built a Hunter class gun. So I've come around in a circle but went the opposite direction this time.

I'm in favor of upping the Hunter weight to 10.5 lbs simply due to the scope issue. The extra weight allowance opens the door for many current variables to be used. That's a simple common sense rule change that everyone can get behind.

The problem isn't the cost of equipment....one look at the PRS world tells you that. My personal thought is that Benchrest itself (IBS/NBRSA, etc) is ridiculous when it comes to the awarding of cash and/or prizes to the winners and top placers. Let's face it, we all enjoy the bit of respect we get from our peers when we do well. And if the winner of a yardage, a Grand or the Two Gun goes home with nothing more than respect and a handful of awards, that's what we've come to accept.

But that doesn't cut it with a new generation looking for a shooting sport to compete in.

Rather than blah-blahing on about this, let's see if this stimulates some conversation. Either pro or con is fine with me. My skin isn't particularly thin.

Good shootin' -Al

I'm that younger generation. I am only 47 and I often talk to people at the range about different shooting sports. I have noticed that when I say 'Benchrest' one of two reactions happen.

The less common results is "What is benchrest"

The more common result is a look of fear on their faces. Well, maybe not fear, but the look of maybe being over whelmed? With the shooting sports that the younger people are attracted to, they can find more firearms and equipment off the shelf at all kinds of different price points. Most of the people I talk to think benchrest automatically means: High end custom rifle(barrel, trigger, stock, action), high end $2k + scope, and a rifle rest that is north of $1k.

Now, people can argue about the truth of that all they want, they can say the classified on here have deals. ext. ... What cannot be argued with is: the perception that young (under 55 lets say) shooters have about getting into benchrest.

So if you want new blood, you have to do two things.

1) Get the word out about benchrest. New people have to know what it is.
2) Educate them on equipment needed and provide format for using that equipment that doesn't cost $4-6k. This format then gives them experience in the sport to catch the bug. Then they start looking for high end equipment.

I have some ideas on the 2nd part that kind of goes to expand the mentorship program.

 

[Dimner]

I'm sorry I just realized, my last post is not really on topic for the hunter class conversation. Carry on! sorry about that.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

I'm sorry I just realized, my last post is not really on topic for the hunter class conversation. Carry on! sorry about that.

Actually I think most of your post is very relevant. We need new shooters in all equipment classes and both score shooting and group shooting.

About 3-4 years ago I first started in benchrest by shooting club score matches. Before I joined my club, I thought all bench rest matches were “load at the bench during the match” affairs. I had only been reloading a few years and wasn’t interested in buying more portable reloading gear so I could load at the match. When I learned I just needed an HV rifle to start shooting registered matches, I was anxious to get started. Last year when I realized I could shoot two more days at the NBRSA score nationals if I got a HTR class rifle, I got one ready for this season. I think most but obviously not all new registered match shooters probably have a somewhat incremental entry path. I think if we focus more on attracting new shooters into score shooting in general, the ones that really like shooting HV-class score matches will hear and learn about the HTR class, and some will try that too.

I think when you have those conversations with people about what benchrest is, I think it’s important to let people know that many or most score shooting competitors preload their ammo, so that’s one less thing for them to be concerned about in terms of startup gear needed.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Actually I think most of your post is very relevant. We need new shooters in all equipment classes and both score shooting and group shooting.

About 3-4 years ago I first started in benchrest by shooting club score matches. Before I joined my club, I thought all bench rest matches were “load at the bench during the match” affairs. I had only been reloading a few years and wasn’t interested in buying more portable reloading gear so I could load at the match. When I learned I just needed an HV rifle to start shooting registered matches, I was anxious to get started. Last year when I realized I could shoot two more days at the NBRSA score nationals if I got a HTR class rifle, I got one ready for this season. I think most but obviously not all new registered match shooters probably have a somewhat incremental entry path. I think if we focus more on attracting new shooters into score shooting in general, the ones that really like shooting HV-class score matches will hear and learn about the HTR class, and some will try that too.

I think when you have those conversations with people about what benchrest is, I think it’s important to let people know that many or most score shooting competitors preload their ammo, so that’s one less thing for them to be concerned about in terms of startup gear needed.

Yes, I can't name a single person who got into BR just to shoot Hunter class and most never will but some do progress to them as well. I'm always amazed at how well a 10lb 30 Cal with a 6x scope can be shot by some of those guys. Seeing the field of flags is a big part of it. We have progressed or maybe regressed, to scope magnification levels where we are lucky to get one flag in the scope with the big 80x scopes etc. I prefer mine to be 40-48x tops, after having bigger mag scopes. It's tough to tell people they should turn them down and I get it but I do best if I can see flags is all.

 

[LHSmith]

I wonder how many would agree with truly going back to the origins and use actual hunting rifles. The genie is out of the bottle and I suspect most would not want to go back there but I may be wrong.

Just a thought, as I'm not a HC shooter but it's easy to see that the guns in the class have morphed into a very constrained little box, where options are extremely limited. I think it's smart to look ahead and get in front of the scope issue. But throw in one little thing, like no longer being able to get the scopes used...well, that's just how constraining the box is for a HC gun and something's gotta give. Overall, I think the fewer the rules, the better.

I've never felt like cost is the biggest issue. I just don't buy that for numerous reasons but it is a factor. I do think money/prizes/awards is a pretty big factor. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've shown br rifles to people and discuss the game..and invariably they will ask the question...how much money can I win doing this! PRS and just about any game kicks our arse in regard to awards.

That's enough from me, as I don't shoot in HC but just some thoughts from a BR shooter is all. There's a lot that can be done to promote the game over all but there's only a few ways the scope issue can be dealt with. I simply think it's best dealt with sooner rather than later.

IBS still offers a factory class if the host venue advertises it in the schedule. However, no one shows up anymore to try it.
I think the lack of suitable scopes is not an issue. A lot of old tried and true 6x scopes are still out there with little demand from competition shooters.

 

[LHSmith]

Yes, I can't name a single person who got into BR just to shoot Hunter class and most never will but some do progress to them as well.

This wasn't the case back in the day- early '70's through early 2000's. I can name many who solely shot Hunter around here- Guy Green, Vince Pastorella, Frank McKee, Eddie Harren, and I don't believe K L Miller actively shot VFS either.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This wasn't the case back in the day- early '70's through early 2000's. I can name many who solely shot Hunter around here- Guy Green, Vince Pastorella, Frank McKee, Eddie Harren, and I don't believe K L Miller actively shot VFS either.

Interesting. I can see the draw due to the challenge it must present though.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

IBS still offers a factory class if the host venue advertises it in the schedule. However, no one shows up anymore to try it.
I think the lack of suitable scopes is not an issue. A lot of old tried and true 6x scopes are still out there with little demand from competition shooters.

Yes, I think some clubs do well with a factory class while others get very little support. I strongly believe it's directly related to how individual clubs actively promote factory class because I've seen both sides of it and how well it can work. To me, this is the number one issue that needs to be addressed to sustain the sport in the long haul. It starts at the top but ends with match directors and participants actively promoting it at the grass roots level. Yes, I do firmly believe it can work wonders but it's a lot easier said than done. It can't work with only a match director or even just the organization offering it and hoping people will show up.

As for the scopes, I simply think it's best to be proactive is all. Unless a mfg randomly brings a scope to market that serves multiple purposes, that happens to work for the 6x HC class, we will run out of scopes and parts. Just a matter of when, not if.

 

[LHSmith]

I'm that younger generation. I am only 47 and I often talk to people at the range about different shooting sports. I have noticed that when I say 'Benchrest' one of two reactions happen.

The less common results is "What is benchrest"

The more common result is a look of fear on their faces. Well, maybe not fear, but the look of maybe being over whelmed? With the shooting sports that the younger people are attracted to, they can find more firearms and equipment off the shelf at all kinds of different price points. Most of the people I talk to think benchrest automatically means: High end custom rifle(barrel, trigger, stock, action), high end $2k + scope, and a rifle rest that is north of $1k.

Now, people can argue about the truth of that all they want, they can say the classified on here have deals. ext. ... What cannot be argued with is: the perception that young (under 55 lets say) shooters have about getting into benchrest.

So if you want new blood, you have to do two things.

1) Get the word out about benchrest. New people have to know what it is.
2) Educate them on equipment needed and provide format for using that equipment that doesn't cost $4-6k. This format then gives them experience in the sport to catch the bug. Then they start looking for high end equipment.

I have some ideas on the 2nd part that kind of goes to expand the mentorship program.

When I tell locals I shoot "Benchrest"- they say "anyone can shoot well at a stationary target from a bench". When I go on in detail to counter their perception - their eyes glaze over. I have offered many times the use of my guns and equipment just to attend a registered match- many via this website - got one single taker in 21 years and he still competes.
With the current economic situation and supply chain problems recruiting will be met with insurmountable odds. My local match venue is 12 miles away. I no longer travel to distant venues due to cost.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

When I tell locals I shoot "Benchrest"- they say "anyone can shoot well at a stationary target from a bench". When I go on in detail to counter their perception - their eyes glaze over. I have offered many times the use of my guns and equipment just to attend a registered match- many via this website - got one single taker in 21 years and he still competes.
With the current economic situation and supply chain problems recruiting will be met with insurmountable odds. My local match venue is 12 miles away. I no longer travel to distant venues due to cost.

Travel is a big issue. To be honest, in this part of the country there's still plenty of places to shoot a rifle. A few guys can get together at a friends farm and have a good afternoon and go home...no big deal. But, tell a new shooter you're gonna travel 8-12 hours away to go shoot a rifle and if you win, you get a nice piece of fake wood, and they'll look at you like you're crazy...and they are probably RIGHT!

 

[jackieschmidt]

Joe, I think a lot of us, myself included, have slipped into a bad habit of using VFS as if it describes an equipment class, when what we should be using is “Heavy Varmint” (HV), or “Hunter” (HTR). With all due respect for all those who have been doing this way longer than I have, within the score matches category in both the NBRSA and IBS rules, there are currently only two equipment classes, Heavy Varmint and Hunter. VFS describes the scoring method and is not an equipment class name.

Now about some of the comments from others about getting with the times, etc. I think some may be missing the reason for even having an HTR class. The reason is to have something that’s different. The scope power limit, lighter equipment weight requirement, and narrower forearm all combine to make it different. The more we change the rules in the direction of the HV class, the less different they are. If people want a scope with larger diameter objective lenses and higher quality glass, I believe there are other means where they can lower their rifle weight to allow them to use a heavier scope, for example fluted barrels. I would rather minimize changes to the equipment class rules. Personally I want the HTR class to remain different from HV, for if it’s not very different from HV, why do we need both? This topic reminds me of a famous speech from September 12, 1962:

“We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, …”

I think we have forgotten where to look to find the best shooters among us, just look to see who won the HTR class at 200 (or 300) yards!

I like the other ideas to attract new shooters, but not watering down the equipment rules.

The other major defining factor that made HBR unique was dropped several years back. That being the case capacity, which was mandated tp be no less than of the 30-30 winchester, which I think is around 45 grns of water. While this greatly simplified the choice of chamberings, it also took away from what the class was supposed to represent.

There were some pretty inventive cases made by shooters needing to get the capacity down to the limit.
Many were based on the 300 Savage, many on the 308. My strangest effort was necking the 6.5 Japanese up to 30 cal, leaving the same taper on the case. Being a semi rimmed case, It fit a .473 bolt face perfect, and shot quite well. It was only a grain over the minimum. I coined the reamer….”the 30 Jackie-Saki”. I still have that reamer somewhere.


The truth is, with todays custom actions, which only have a small slot cut in the bottom to satisfy the class rules, modern bags which make the 2 1/4 forearm just as viable as a 3””, 1 ounce triggers, the dropping of the case capacity rule, etc, the single defining factor is now the 6x scope and the 10 pound weight.

the lack of decent scope problem can easily be solved by simply adding enough weight to the Rifle to allow some type of modern variable that will weigh around 24 ounces for the optics and mounts. Tape it on 6x and problem solved.

At last years Nationals, that was exactly what was suggested being explored.

 

[Ron IA]

I see many talking about changing the Hunter class rules most don't shoot the class the current rules have been voted on by Hunter shooters and it should remain that way there is no magic way to increase the number of new shooters we won't give up trying to get more shooters into the game for now that's all we can do.

 

[jxb]

I'm not sure I agree it's about awards or travel.

I could care less about some trophy, the score card is of interest and of course overall standing so I can see if I'm improving. The social part is of interest, learning what others have and do, travel to various places I might otherwise never go, and enjoying their local foods.

Travel, yeah I quit flying unless absolutely necessary. I could get on a rant about why, but what's the point. If I have time I like to drive and out west if you don't want to drive 8-12hrs then you should probably move. We love our wide open places, but yes that means distance between most everything.

silhouette sparks my interest. Why? I see a person with what is basically a hunting rifle standing there trying to hit targets of various sizes at various distances. Meaning assuming you have a rifle that will shoot 1/2moa or better (maybe even 1mo), it's more about shooting than the gear. If I was to shoot hunter or varminter I'd want the same, I should be able to shoot in a class that requires equipment that one would normally use for those activities and the rest is on the shooter to perform.

I have zero interest in having a bunch of hardware I line up and trip the trigger, should there be a class for that, of course and seems there is, I believe it's called BR. I'd be interested in F-TR except I have no interest in 223 or 308, how about that format, but for something in other calibers. Like separate classes for 6mm vs 7mm/30cal, meaning if 6mm can't buck the wind as well as heavier, then how about its own class so you're competing apples to apples. F-Open seems interesting, but to me it's really teetering on the edge of too much hardware vs the shooter, if it wasn't for reading wind and mirage, it would be mostly hardware IMO, but at LR reading those are key, again more about shooter's skill than hardware.

My point being most non-competitive shooters that might be interested are more likely to be interested in the raw shooting skills part of it than the equipment part. Why? because that's all they know. Especially those without the funds to get whatever. I have all the funds I need to do whatever I wish, I simply have zero interest in playing the hardware game any more than required to get out and have fun. I think it's interesting to see how they do it and clearly there's skill involved, but again my interests are more raw shooting, similar to what I could do in the field, but not necessarily to the degree that PRS goes as that requires a lot of travel.

In the end, I don't know what I don't know so there's that. You all that do it know because you've been doing it, chosen the parts you like and all that.

 

[Dimner]

do any of these benchrest matches get advertised or posted on the non benchrest shooting sites?
Snipers Hide, Rockslide, Longrange hunting, etc etc...

If the answer is no, that's your first step. The potential new shooters have to hear about a match to want to figure out what benchrest is all about.

You have to recruit. They won't come to you.

 

[LHSmith]

Travel is a big issue. To be honest, in this part of the country there's still plenty of places to shoot a rifle. A few guys can get together at a friends farm and have a good afternoon and go home...no big deal. But, tell a new shooter you're gonna travel 8-12 hours away to go shoot a rifle and if you win, you get a nice piece of fake wood, and they'll look at you like you're crazy...and they are probably RIGHT!

When I started competition in early 2000 there were at least 14 venues hosting IBS SR Score competitions with-in a 3 hr drive for me. Today that number of venues is down to 2. Can't get people to help, at some ranges a hard rift developed among disciplines, some closed down due to township ordinances - overhead baffle systems are too expensive for small clubs. I should have started competition in the mid '70's after I saw 2 guys show up at Guthsville R & G Club with rifles sporting colored stocks and shiny bull barrels and they shot ragged one hole groups that I never thought possible.. I later ID'd those guys as Lester Bruno and Gary O'Cock.
It's amazing how 20 years later I remembered their faces, but that's just how impressed I was at their level of skill.

 

[Peterson1]

I'm reminded of the slogan from a "Successful Buisnessman"

Early to bed
Early to rise
Work like hell
And ADVERTISE

Post matches so shooters become aware
Post results so shooters can view
Both of above in any venue that will allow

We all must help in the "ADVERTISING -PROMOTION" of the sport we enjoy!!!

Remember shooters all/most start at a local club then some "Trickle Up"
Local club shooter--some will progress to state/regional shoots--some will progress to National events.
The national organisations must support the local club shooting events.

CLP