Hand vs machine annealing

[TaperPin]

I’m in full agreement with the OP, we could use some simple data just testing seating pressure SD’s after annealing by various methods —sorry if I missed it, I’m sure it’s probably out there somewhere and I probably saw it and forgot about it.

I do “manual” annealing after each firing, using propane torches and metronome, all equipment from anneal-rite.com (attached).

It’s not expensive and the primers you reload with are probably much more dangerous than the propane torch— I keep a fire extinguisher close by.

When I skip annealing it seems like I get variation in seating pressure (K&M arbor press with a force pack and guage installed) from one reloading session to the next.

I would say if your seating pressures within one reloading session are +/- 10%, such as 30 lb +/- 3 lbs for my 30 cal, and if they stay at 30lb after several firings, then you’re good to go. If not then try something different.

I’ve been able to get that by heating for 7-10 sec until 750F Tempilaq changes color, or maybe just a second longer. I may not be “annealing”, but so far all I care about is consistency in seating pressure.

And accuracy has been competitive on occasion in both F class and BR, including 1k yd.

If I get richer I’ll spend some more $ and get the Amp.

I’ve graduated from standing cases upright on a cookie sheet and simply moving the torch from case to case, to spinning cases by hand in a 1/4” drive deep socket and extension. Your setup looks quite good.

Nobody in my social circle has an auto annealer, but my nephew and I will send some cases off to an annealing service and shoot them vs our hand annealed brass. Hand annealing can create an off center color discoloration, it will put my mind at ease testing an off center anneal. That probably should have been the title of this post.

As a science project we might take a pneumatic cylinder and pressure gauge to measure seating pressure as well.

 

[MisterHelix]

Hey there. I just finished annealing a thousand .223 cases on my EP Integrations machine, and though I have no empirical data, it’s hard for me to imagine achieving the same consistency if I did it by hand.


Just my 2¢.
-MisterHelix

 

[MikeRu]

I’ve graduated from standing cases upright on a cookie sheet and simply moving the torch from case to case, to spinning cases by hand in a 1/4” drive deep socket and extension. Your setup looks quite good.

Nobody in my social circle has an auto annealer, but my nephew and I will send some cases off to an annealing service and shoot them vs our hand annealed brass. Hand annealing can create an off center color discoloration, it will put my mind at ease testing an off center anneal. That probably should have been the title of this post.

As a science project we might take a pneumatic cylinder and pressure gauge to measure seating pressure as well.

Agree that assymetry is an issue too.

The asymmetry effect can be largely reduced or eliminated by rocking the annealrite case holder back and forth slightly in the flame, back and forth by about the thickness of the case neck diameter (0.243, 0,30 etc) and periodicity of 1 sec (by metronome). The color change on the brass should be pretty symmetric or else adjust the case holder front/rear a little.

Also annealing each firing moderates the assymetry because any assymetry averages out over multiple annealing cycles.

 

[TaperPin]

I have been annealing for about five years now , as it was brought to my attention that it would make my cases last longer , and be more consistent , regarding interference fit , ( Neck Tension )....It also has made my "Bump" more consistent , to the point that I can control shoulder bump to within .001 on the majority of my brass
Not every piece , but the majority , by about 98% . I can live with that .
I now have over thirty reloads on my roughly 350 practice Brass , and the only issue has been gradually expanding primer pockets , where I then use the Ginex primers , till they go over-sized for them . The more consistent your cases , the more consistent the scores . Less than stellar S/D's run around 7-1/2 to 8 , and average is around 4 - 6 , so I know the problem is not the brass , or the load , but the loose nut behind the trigger .

In the past I’ve only thought of annealing as a way to extend case life, but with better shooting rifles it seems it’s not too much extra work to anneal every time.

Our family is full of hunters and factory hunting rifles, so S/D’s that low might have us doing a happy dance around the chronograph.

Many hunters and plinkers see top accuracy from the outside looking in, and much of the subtle reloading techniques go over our head. To show my nephew how to get into something new, we are putting together a 6ppc from a retired benchrest barrel and gathering proper dies and components.

 

[TaperPin]

Hey there. I just finished annealing a thousand .223 cases on my EP Integrations machine, and though I have no empirical data, it’s hard for me to imagine achieving the same consistency if I did it by hand.
View attachment 1493577

Just my 2¢.
-MisterHelix

Not to mention doing it by hand, the newness wears off about case number 87, case #204 boredom sets in, case #368 becomes mentally painful, and #678 is physically painful. Lol

If we become higher volume shooters an upgrade is definitely in the cards!

 

[TaperPin]

I don't anneal at all, and my rifles are more than capable of winning F class matches. Don't concern yourself with small problems. Chase the big ones. if hand vs amp is the biggest problem you're considering, you are well into national championship level accuracy.

My gut feeling has been this is probably a very small issue - most likely a non issue. Advice from more experienced shooters such as yourself is appreciated.

For me and my nephew I’ve suggested we consider all our old reloading practices as potentially broken and look closely at every step, as a basic learning experience for him, and I’m enjoying learning the more advanced aspects of it. As we move along we’ll both have a better appreciation for what matters most.

Showing a kid how to test something has little measurable effect on accuracy sticks with him much more than just telling him.

 

[karrarararararar]

Instead of running a drill and counting, I'm sitting here reading forum posts. How is that not worth $275 by itself?

https://imgur.com/a/ysYnDI5

 

[Dgd6mm]

Instead of running a drill and counting, I'm sitting here reading forum posts. How is that not worth $275 by itself?

https://imgur.com/a/ysYnDI5

I've been reloading for over 20 years now. As soon as I was introduced to reloading I was also introduced to annealing with a torch and drill. I never did pick up the annealing thing for years. My good buddy Jim Carr (Teele1) made me a homemade annealing machine. I enjoy running it, if it's for nothing more than just doing it. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh retirement.

 

[robert8904]

I reload for multiple rifles of a few calibers. I anneal partly because of the fine control it gives me over headspace, so the same brass can be used in more than one rifle. The consistent neck tension and good case life are icing on the cake.

 

[Tesoro]

Hey there. I just finished annealing a thousand .223 cases on my EP Integrations machine, and though I have no empirical data, it’s hard for me to imagine achieving the same consistency if I did it by hand.
View attachment 1493577

Just my 2¢.
-MisterHelix

You can achieve the same consistency by hand. Not hard if you have the right set up. But not to do 200 at once but I do 50 in short time.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Reloaders generally don't post anywhere close to all of their testing results. Further, I believe it would be difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate a significant difference between brass annealed by a machine, and brass annealed "by hand", at least, if the person annealing by hand knew what they were doing and paid careful attention during the work. I'm also not sure the arguments about being faster and more uniform are necessarily true, at least if your talking about an [automated] torch-based annealing machine. If you're looking for a test comparison of induction annealing versus hand annealing, you might check under "Research" here: https://www.ampannealing.com/downloads/, or give them a call. My gut feeling is that you would have to find the specific individual that has actually done the comparative test about which your asking, generated a clear and definitive result, and is willing to share that result. That might be a fairly tall order.

With respect to teaching new reloaders, I would point out that there are many things we do as reloaders for which there is minimal or no "proof" that they are actually of benefit. This occurs largely because some things we do are fairly difficult to compare head-to-head, apples-to-apples. Nonetheless, we do them because we feel more confident that they are providing some benefit, even if that benefit may be hard to quantify and demonstrate statistical significance. A proper education in the reloading business should include mention of this.

There is very little "proof" of any of these things. In fact, the word "proof" in shooting circles immediately turns into "well so and so does this" as proof.

"So and so" is usually a much better shooter.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

One of my hobbies is making stuff so I make anything that can
some peoples hobby is buying stuff so they buy anything they can
I try to make life simple, some like to make complicated
I like low tech, some like high tech
if you like what your doing keep doing it
there’s more than one way to skin a cat

 

[Tesoro]

One of my hobbies is making stuff so I make anything that can
some peoples hobby is buying stuff so they buy anything they can
I try to make life simple, some like to make complicated
I like low tech, some like high tech
if you like what your doing keep doing it
there’s more than one way to skin a cat

I am right along side of you!! I used to have a bench-source and sold it. I bought a 18$ mini potters wheel on Amazon and an alum case holder and added a ss spring off an coleman cooler. I can do easy 100 cases in 20-25min depending on torch tip. This is 6br so I like to use a small tip and take a few extra seconds. I heat until neck gets deep cherry glow and cut off before it gets the yellow flame.

 

[TaperPin]

Instead of running a drill and counting, I'm sitting here reading forum posts. How is that not worth $275 by itself?

https://imgur.com/a/ysYnDI5

That is strangely fun to watch. . .

 

[Bc'z]

I am right along side of you!! I used to have a bench-source and sold it. I bought a 18$ mini potters wheel on Amazon and an alum case holder and added a ss spring off an coleman cooler. I can do easy 100 cases in 20-25min depending on torch tip. This is 6br so I like to use a small tip and take a few extra seconds. I heat until neck gets deep cherry glow and cut off before it gets the yellow flame.

Resourceful!!
I've got a Benchsource sitting in the box, I've yet to set it up, maybe if I get the opportunity to reorganize and set up my new bench I'll get it running.
In the meantime I'll continue with torch n drill.

 

[Tesoro]

Resourceful!!
I've got a Benchsource sitting in the box, I've yet to set it up, maybe if I get the opportunity to reorganize and set up my new bench I'll get it running.
In the meantime I'll continue with torch n drill.

I found the bench-source to be too much machine, and very heavy, for a simple purpose. Keep junk brass for setup, which takes a bit to get it adjusted and timed, And then have to go thru whole process all over if switching cases. I had mine 8 yrs ago and it did not have a chute to direct hot cases out and away from machine, instead it piled them up underneath. Get a piece of sheet metal and some snips to make a chute so the cases drop n' roll into a pan to the side of the machine. Use one torch for 223-30-06 size cases. The other thing with the bench-source is you have to sit there and constantly feed it so it is not really 'automatic' and basically just holds and times the torch for you. But it does have a neat musical sequence when processing brass!

 

[Longtrain]

I used to anneal manually with 750 tempilaq, my buddy bought an AMP, that he’s generous in lending. It makes my cases last much longer and my sizing is very consistent. It didn’t turn my 8’s into 10’s or X’s.

 

[Mike Montgomery]

If you are annealing with a torch you could try something that I do?? I set a 60 beats per minute Metronome on my phone and count the beats to time how long to leave the case in the flame. Works for me.

Mike

 

[Tesoro]

I listen to a podcast or tv in dark room. Once u see dark red glow inside neck pull off the flame. Ur done.

 

[Herzo]

I drug out my Ruger #1B a few weeks ago and started looking over the brass I had for it. Out of 120 pieces of Remington brass (6mm Remington) I found 16 pieces to have split necks. Got out the propane torch turned out the lights, spun the brass in my fingers until the necks glowed cherry red & dropped them onto a screen. Hope I saved them.
Unfortunately that method doesn't work well with my 6.5 Grendel.