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Firing Pin Bumping Shoulder?

Has anyone measured a case before and after dry firing and does the firing pin bump the shoulder back?
Yes. Savage Axis 223. Setback .006" Brass NOT annealed.

Found by accident. Bad primer didnt fire. More testing showed it happens ever time.
A 2nd strike will set the shoulder back even more. The extractor allows the brass to move forward a lot.

A different action like Rem 700 may control the brass forward movement better?? Not tested by me.
 
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Yes. Savage Axis 223. Setback .006" Brass NOT annealed.

Found by accident. Bad primer didnt fire. More testing showed it happens ever time.
A 2nd strike will set the shoulder back even more. The extractor allows the brass to move forward a lot.

A different action like Rem 700 may control the brass forward movement better?? Not tested by me.
Glad to hear someone else has experienced the same thing which would indicate that it isn’t due to my getting the brass too hot. I probably had a bad primer or didn’t seat it correctly.
 
subsonic loads
Hodgdon Youth Loads/reduced loads in 30-06 with jacketed bullets will expand the case body on firing & at the same time, make the head to datum measurement shorter.

As far as primers not firing because of excessive head clearance/shoulder pushed back to far. Try this on a Savage Axis. Cut the shoulder off a 223 case. Manually insert primed case against the bolt face, under the extractor.
Fires every time. The extractor holds the primed brass.

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I am FAR from an expert in this (or most technical reloading matters). However, I would think it would be quite difficult for the firing pin spring to be strong enough to cause .003 of shoulder bump.
What is strength of your firing pin spring, 28lbs? That’s the force getting transferred, some of it gets used in crushing primer cup and rest pushes case forward. That moving case stops when shoulder hits the chamber, as long as case is not tight against the walls(that is as long as case is either new or full length sized).
As mentioned above, extractor holds case enough to fire the primer but there’s enough movement between extractor and case for it to move forward fair amounts (we are talking 3 to 6 thou)
 
What is strength of your firing pin spring, 28lbs? That’s the force getting transferred, some of it gets used in crushing primer cup and rest pushes case forward. That moving case stops when shoulder hits the chamber, as long as case is not tight against the walls(that is as long as case is either new or full length sized).
As mentioned above, extractor holds case enough to fire the primer but there’s enough movement between extractor and case for it to move forward fair amounts (we are talking 3 to 6 thou)
Movement yes. Bumping the shoulder, I have reservations on that.
 
The pre and immediately post WW2 experimenters such as George C Nonte Jnr wrote extensively about the ability of firing pin strike alone to bump shoulders. In a much more cost conscious age when reducing components costs and using a single rifle for many purposes were desirable, you had very light, or even ultra-light, loads with light home-cast bullets and very small charges of pistol powders. Nonte used 2.5-5gn charges of Bullseye in various full-size cartridges like .303 British and .30-06. No press or dies were needed as cases didn't expand and bullets (or off the shelf buckshot balls) were simply hand-pressed into the case-mouth with a dollop of Vaseline, cases were decapped with a piece of dowelling with a small diameter nail in one end ............ and so on.

All such writers stressed that the cases used in such ultra-light loads, especially if rimless, had to be segregated from those used in full-power loads as they developed seriously excessive headspace over the course of repeated firings, the low pressures such charges generated failing to blow the shoulders forward again on firing and so each successive use saw the shoulder clearance increase. P O Ackley in (I think) Part 1 of his Handbook for Reloaders and shooters carried out an experiment which involved such light loads and reached the point where the firing pin reach was no longer adequate to ignite the primer after multiple firings and shoulder 'bumps', and had to engineer a firing pin tip extension to carry on.

So, this phenomenon exists, albeit the sort of rifle Nonte and others were using usually had heavy strikers and powerful springs which presumably imparted much greater energy to the pin tip than many of today's actions, especially custom match orientated designs. Whether the OP's possible over-annealing led to this situation on a single firing seems rather problematic with multiple other possible causes, but that's my opinion only FWIW.
 
My experience with NEW Peterson Brass and BR4 primers is close to the same. The new brass was a good fit, but the shoulders are not fully formed. They are rounded a little. So with BR4s I experienced some misfires. Those misfired cases the shoulder was pushed back .005-6. Switched to Using Federal primers the remaining new cases all went bang, and shoulders come out nice and sharp. Jammed bullets on the bumped cases and fired them all with federal as well. Something about the rounded shoulder and the br4 allows enough of the inertia to be absorbed and not light the primer, or it’s a crap box of BR4s.
 
Did you measure each case before and after the bumping? I do and every now and then one bumps more/less than the others, that being said a .003 shoulder bump won’t cause the situation you’re describing……JMTCW….
 
How does the OP know the shoulder was bumped back if he doesn't measure every round before firing? Even with careful sizing and reloading, your CBTS can vairy .001 to .003. If you are using the expander in your FL sizing die, your CBTS will change even more. The cramming action of a bolt gun is significant.

I would sooner think the primer was not seated or just a faulty primer. Like me, the OP may be overthinking!:mad:
 
I’ve fallen victim to measuring headspace/shoulder datum on brass with the primer proud of the case head.

I’ve done it with fired brass and a cratered pin indentations as well as unfired primers not fully seated. Both instances left me with puzzling data.
 
The pre and immediately post WW2 experimenters such as George C Nonte Jnr wrote extensively about the ability of firing pin strike alone to bump shoulders. In a much more cost conscious age when reducing components costs and using a single rifle for many purposes were desirable, you had very light, or even ultra-light, loads with light home-cast bullets and very small charges of pistol powders. Nonte used 2.5-5gn charges of Bullseye in various full-size cartridges like .303 British and .30-06. No press or dies were needed as cases didn't expand and bullets (or off the shelf buckshot balls) were simply hand-pressed into the case-mouth with a dollop of Vaseline, cases were decapped with a piece of dowelling with a small diameter nail in one end ............ and so on.

All such writers stressed that the cases used in such ultra-light loads, especially if rimless, had to be segregated from those used in full-power loads as they developed seriously excessive headspace over the course of repeated firings, the low pressures such charges generated failing to blow the shoulders forward again on firing and so each successive use saw the shoulder clearance increase. P O Ackley in (I think) Part 1 of his Handbook for Reloaders and shooters carried out an experiment which involved such light loads and reached the point where the firing pin reach was no longer adequate to ignite the primer after multiple firings and shoulder 'bumps', and had to engineer a firing pin tip extension to carry on.

So, this phenomenon exists, albeit the sort of rifle Nonte and others were using usually had heavy strikers and powerful springs which presumably imparted much greater energy to the pin tip than many of today's actions, especially custom match orientated designs. Whether the OP's possible over-annealing led to this situation on a single firing seems rather problematic with multiple other possible causes, but that's my opinion only FWIW.
Thanks Laurie. Based on the replies to my original post, I’m almost certain I simply had a bad primer and the additional shoulder bump was due to the firing pin, just as you posted here.
 
The anvil not being 'loaded' to the bottom of the primer pocket is the likely cause. That's one of the downsides to seating primers to a specified depth with any sort of adjustable priming tool....you lose the tactile feel when the primer anvil is seated correctly.

Good shootin' -Al
Al, this is very true, I have no feel with the hard stop. I just seat until the handle stops and go to the next case. This is a downside of the tool.
 
How does the OP know the shoulder was bumped back if he doesn't measure every round before firing? Even with careful sizing and reloading, your CBTS can vairy .001 to .003. If you are using the expander in your FL sizing die, your CBTS will change even more. The cramming action of a bolt gun is significant.

I would sooner think the primer was not seated or just a faulty primer. Like me, the OP may be overthinking!:mad:
I am certainly overthinking, but I can’t help it
 

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