Modern primers and tube magazines

[dhagerty40]

After seeing a Lever action Blow up just about 2 years ago, I will personally follow any rules to the letter!
Even though we do not think this was caused by a primer detonation in the tube,( we think it was caused by a bullet stuck in the barrel from squib load), A round in the tube did ignite which caused a lot of damage (2 rounds total). it was a 45/70 shooting cast bullets.

when we gathered up the gun, it was in 4 pieces and we did not find part of the action. Luckily the shooter got away with 18 stitches in his hand and arm with some cuts on his face.

Just remember, Some Lever action rifles are still made of Brass or aluminum, so they are not as strong as "Modern Day" actions.

 

[ebb]

I looked for a while for the picture that I believe I saw here, I googled every way I could phrase the question. but it never came up. Two high ranking Air Force or Army guys that were loaded up a bunch of 30/30 ammo with pointed bullets and set them all off in the magazine. Only of the guys was hurt pretty bad. "At least he asked." Wolf Dog is a great guy, that served his country, takes care of older retired military guys and is getting pretty crafty with his reloading. I followed him at Cast Bollits before he came here, and I am intrigued by his trapping posts. I don't want to see him injured in any way. I see younger guys like him and I think maybe our country might have a future.

 

[ebb]

This is a perfect opportunity for you then. Set up a you tube account and load some up and show us how we are all wrong. I understand that some of the more popular channels make a lot of money. You could be the next Erik Cortina.

 

[Tommie]

Someone who understands and can explain the physics of motion hopefully will chime in. Here’s how my uneducated eye sees what happens when a round is fired in a tube magazine rifle. The backward recoil impulse drives the gun back while the stationary inertia of the cartridges makes them want to stay still. So the gun moves away from the cartridges. The cartridges, if anything, are compressing the spring inside the magazine and then the spring pushes the rounds back to the rear. Kinda like a shock absorber. So the question is (if my layman’s assumptions hold water) whether the dangerous primer impact occurs when the rounds are “pushing” forward against the magazine spring or does the primer impact happen when the cartridges come back to rest?

Side note: After shooting a Winchester 65 in .218 Bee it’s difficult to picture that cartridge producing enough recoil to cause detonation issues with pointed bullets. But no, I won’t conduct an experiment to prove that hypothesis.

 

[dellet]

But lever actions are not violent like semi-autos. The tip is not pushing into the primer, the primer would be pushing against the tip. Me thinks someone is overthinking this action.

A 45/70 with a 450 bullet, 30 grains of powder and a case weighs another 200 grains. Basically 10 rounds to a pound.

Takes about 6 pounds of forces to set off a primer.

Two things happen, recoil force multiple times on the same spot, a 3” spring forced drop each time a round is chambered.

A good at home test would be to put an empty case with a live primer, primer up in a vice, take a one pound hammer and strike the primer with a punch by repeatedly dropping the hammer from 3” high. Count the drops until it pops.

If this type of test makes you uncomfortable, you probably shouldn’t load pointy bullets in a tube magazine.

 

[M-61]

After shooting a Winchester 65 in .218 Bee

Next to 22 LR is there much left with less recoil?
My guess the number of tubular magazines holding 30-30 is 1000x that of the Bee.
Additionally, whether the recoil sends the cartridges forward or backward you have a pointed bullet going into the primer OR a primer coming back onto a pointed bullet.

 

[M-61]

Takes about 6 pounds of forces to set off a primer.

Where did this come from?

A good at home test would be to put an empty case with a live primer, primer up in a vice, take a one pound hammer and strike the primer with a punch by repeatedly dropping the hammer from 3” high. Count the drops until it pops

This is a horrible idea. Terribly unsafe.

“ If this type of test makes you uncomfortable, you probably shouldn’t load pointy bullets in a tube magazine.”

Actually if it doesn’t make you uncomfortable you have a serious problem.
Single load your really worked up 30-30 and see how your best group comes out. I did it with a 30-30 and then a 45-70. Quite pleasing results with no surgeries or ‘cripple’ stocks needed afterwards.

 

[M-61]

I would add I spent a portion of my life screwing electrically primed igniters into 4 pound white phosphorus grenades that I screwed into 150 gallon napalm tanks. ( not in that order in case another armorer is reading this) I worried about stray voltage.
That and like things have made always err on the side of caution. To this day I haven’t changed.
Never will either. I have ten fingers and two eyes and I’m writing this.

 

[SecondsCount]

I don't think I would try it with a pointed bullet, but I make a mild load for my 30-30 using 110 jacketed round nosed bullets, and have not seen any indication of primer impacts.

 

[dellet]

Where did this come from?

Memory and it may very well be wrong or only correct for the rifle I was testing at the time.

Primer sensitivity test for military primers used to be, again from memory, a 4 oz ball dropped from 10” needed to set off all primers tested. You can do the math but it’s about 3 pounds.

The test I described is meant to be absurd, but accurate. Take the cartridge column weight and drop it the length of one cartridge onto the primer, you should also add the velocity gained from the spring.

So for a 45 Colt, drop a one pound weight from 1.5”

Just a way to visualize what happens in the magazine every time the column of cartridges moves. Yes, this does assume the rifle is pointed straight up,

Not cycling pointed straight up is probably why blowing up the magazine tube does not happen more often.

 

[dellet]

So how many of these primers do you know of being set off?

I mean, reading your post makes me believe it's not hard to blow an entire tube. Do you know of cases of this actually happening? I'd like to see actual cases of this happening, not theory. Call me a skeptic.

Posted a link with phots in post #12

Might search “magazine tube detonation” probably about as common as slam fires in semi autos, only much more dramatic when it happens.

 

[M-61]

Not cycling pointed straight up is probably why blowing up the magazine tube does not happen more often.

Not being a wise ass at all.
But that sentence….whew.
So cycling horizontally does or doesn’t cause more or less primers firing?
Forget it.
Which way horizontally or vertically is the safest?

 

[M-61]

Might search “magazine tube detonation” probably about as common as slam fires in semi autos, only much more dramatic when it happens

I seriously doubt that.
I’ll add the number of people who elect to load pointed bullets for use in a tubular magazine I would hope was very small.
But then again this is ‘new’ times so maybe everyone does it.
That moronic show Myth Busters with the two giggling idiots did a segment on how slamming two hammers face to face was perfectly safe.
I’m not doing that, and I’m not filling a tubular magazine with pointed bullets.

 

[dellet]

Those look like lead round nose bullets. I did some googling and got mixed results. Seems operating the lever too fast might cause it, and I saw a guy state that it is more likely to happen with round nose flat points.

When you say pointed bullets, are you talking about an SMK or something like that? Or a LeverRevelution?

The OP said pointed bullets and I believe mention SMK.

I included a link to a known instance because someone asked for proof that it ever happened. The instance I provided happened to have involved round nosed, lead bullets, if it happen with a lead round nose, common sense would say a harder surface object that more closely resembles a firing pin, would be more likely to set off a primer when repeatedly banged against it.

Here is a link to a primer sensitivity machine designed to test this very issue for all ammo. The process is as I described earlier. A ROUND ball of a certain weight, is dropped on the primer, from a certain distance. At the short distance, no primers should ignite. At the highest distance, all primers should ignite.

PRIMER SENSITIVITY TESTER

TECHNICAL DATA:Height adjustable 650mmRemote control cable length 5mInserts with chamber for any cartridge up to 12,7mmGas products evacuation system from th...

www.zpvpro.com

I also described earlier how case shape affects how a cartridge rides in the magazine tube. If there is a taper large enough to allow the tip of the bullet to drop below the primer of the next cartridge, ignition risk is reduced. Compare this to a pistol cartridge with a straight wall often seen in a lever action, as in the link provided, you should be able to see how the likely hood of lining a bullet point with a primer would be easier.

The comment about holding the magazine tube vertical, compared to horizontal illustrates a perfect storm in which the loaded magazine tube would be set up exactly like the machine designed to test primer sensitivity. A machine designed to ignite primers with a round object dropped on it. Except it is a spring loaded device, forcing a heavier weight, a shorter distance

There is photographic evidence, a machine that closely resembles the process of what happens in a tubular magazine that can ignite primers on command and detailed scenarios of how the cartridges can line up in the tube. All that is missing is critical thinking, allowing someone to imagine how easily in the right circumstances igniting a column of cartridges can happen.

The safest cartridges will have flat nose, larger than the diameter of the primer, with the primer set below the surface of the case head. Anything else has the potential bang the primer and set it off. The Hornady bullets would be an exception, as it was specifically designed for this application. Other plastic soft nosed bullets might be safe, but load and use those like your life depends on the softness of the tip, because it just might.

Not sure what else I can add to this and previous posts that might help convince people to be careful what they load in a tubular magazine. Some people only learn by hands on experience. And i actually Included a reasonably safe way to gain that experience without loading a full magazine,

Hope that helps.

Exit to add,
Remember the faster you work the lever, the faster the cartridge column will move. So to a certain extent you can control the energy applied to the primers in the tube. Recoil, not so much. Just two more factors that play into the equation.

 

[jds holler]

Have you ever known that guy, who has more to say, than needs to be said, about things that hardly need talking about?

There is apparently a lot of us guys around here. jd

 

[jds holler]

AND -- Advice is seldom wanted, and those who need it the most usually like it the least.