Can I FL size w/ std die then Mandrel?

[dusterdave173]

Rookie here with question
Do you have to use bushing die or honed die first or can you just FL size with ball removed with your standard die then mandrel? loading 223 bolt gun only
I have loaded with success for about a year--learned a lot but now have two rifles with brand new barrels and want to up my game start from scratch to develop better ways of doing things--I have a new annealer--have a set of mandrells a new FX120i, new brass etc and am ready to try for better ammo
So .........

 

[padom]

Sure, you CAN mandrel size after FL sizing with the expander ball removed.

You can see the benefits of using a proper bushing or honed die by measuring fired brass OD Neck, then measure the neck again after you run it through your FL sizer, then measure it again after using a mandrel.

Most FL dies excessively size down the neck because they are made to size lots of different brands of brass with lots of different neck thicknesses..

Using a proper bushing or honed die allows you to squeeze your neck down the necessary amount so you aren't overworking your brass....

I used all honed Forster FL dies or SAC bushing dies to squeeze my necks down 0.004 then open back up 0.002 with a mandrel to give nice concentric necks with 0.002 neck tension...

 

[SKWERLZ]

Absolutely
I’ve gotten noticeably better results with a full length die with no expander and using a mandrel versus FL with expander.
Even better with a bushing FL die

 

[dusterdave173]

OK great just the kind of info I need
I appreciate the reply!!! I understand better now--looks like fair wait on honed so I guess I need to get a bushing set up on the way. I have seen a few folks mention the Redding bushings are iffy and SAC or others give better results ? I really like my Redding stuff and their tech guy has been good so far--just want to buy Once on this stuff
Opinions? What is my best move here?
I appreciate all the help--I can't help it that I am a rookie--but don't plan on staying one

 

[padom]

OK great just the kind of info I need
I appreciate the reply!!! I understand better now--looks like fair wait on honed so I guess I need to get a bushing set up on the way. I have seen a few folks mention the Redding bushings are iffy and SAC or others give better results ? I really like my Redding stuff and their tech guy has been good so far--just want to buy Once on this stuff
Opinions? What is my best move here?
I appreciate all the help--I can't help it that I am a rookie--but don't plan on staying one

While SAC dies and bushing are really nice and I own many of them, nothing wrong with a Redding FL Bushing die and Redding Bushings. Or even better, I've really liked the Wilson FL bushing dies. They are nicer than Redding and cheaper than SAC or other high end/custom dies...the fit and finish on the L.E. Wilson dies are very nice

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

17 rem, 223 Rem, 22-250, 7Saum, 30Tc, 30-06, 338wm. All FL no guts and than mandrel.

 

[BoydAllen]

Make sure you lube the inside of the neck with a liquid lube, and remove it after expanding. Take your time with the expanding.

 

[ronemus]

I use a Hornady die with their elliptical expander, which works as well as a mandrel. I neck turn all of my brass, so an off-the-shelf die reduces the neck OD only slightly more than necessary. I get a custom elliptical expander that brings the brass up to where I want it; usually the expander is bullet diameter or or a few ten thousandths less. That gives me maximum grip on the bullet and maintains concentricity best. Using the bullet as an expander never made sense to me. I do have a die made if the standard one doesn't have the neck ID I want. I don't know if Lonnie Hammel still handles custom die requests at Hornady,but he was very easy to work with and didn't mind a long conversation if that's what it took to get the details straight. Best of all, the custom dies only cost ~50% more than a standard one, and the wait time generally wasn't bad.

I am always trying to make the best ammo I can with the least effort; sizing and expanding in one step is a huge time saver. I compared brass made as described above with brass sized and expanded in in separate operations and couldn't find a difference when using the elliptical expander.

 

[Sandstorm]

Redding bushing dies work great...you dont need to spend on Custom stuff less ya want too
spend more.

 

[liseo]

For me, the best result was with honed FL die.
I uses with low quality ( dimensional )brass, but I do neck turning and FL resizing for my custom 223.
Is my current Fclass TR 300 m recipe

 

[alf]

Stuffing a mandrel into a small neck can induce concentricity issues......

 

[bozo699]

Rookie here with question
Do you have to use bushing die or honed die first or can you just FL size with ball removed with your standard die then mandrel? loading 223 bolt gun only
I have loaded with success for about a year--learned a lot but now have two rifles with brand new barrels and want to up my game start from scratch to develop better ways of doing things--I have a new annealer--have a set of mandrells a new FX120i, new brass etc and am ready to try for better ammo
So .........

I read your thread last night and was going to mention this but figured for sure someone else would. You can do what you’re asking but you’re going to over work your brass. Most standard dies size the neck way down then opens the neck back up with the ball . Alf pointed out an important issue if you do use this method do as Boyd said and use plenty of lube and I would go one step further I would use two or three different mandrels to open them up in steps or as Alf mentioned you will induce runout. The best thing to do would buy a good bushing die if you don’t want a custom die. Someone else mentioned a Wilson, I own hundreds of Redding dies and I like them but I have a couple Wilson f/l bushing dies and they’re very well made.
Wayne

 

[dusterdave173]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate the education--I understand about the over working--makes good sense--I just figured that if you are poking it from the top it would be same as yanking a ball from below
I think I will see about a bushing die and go from there---I have loaded some very good shooting ammo with my Redding competition dies by just being careful and measuring a lot to try and see what is actually happening as I go--I just wanted to better my game going forward with these two new barrels
Thanks so much

 

[alf]

If you don't have a concentricity gauge, you can roll your loaded round on a flat surface, like a piece of glass,and it takes about 4 thou runout to be visible.

 

[ronemus]

I think I will see about a bushing die and go from there

Be aware that you'll have to use bushings in steps of no more than 0.003-4"; if you make too large a change you'll induce runout. That's why many people use honed full length dies - you can go the whole distance in one step. Another alternative is to use a custom chamber with no more than 0.004" total clearance and a bushing die; note that usually means turning your necks as the variations in even the best brass could be a serious problem with that little clearance.

 

[6.5 forever]

Absolutely
I’ve gotten noticeably better results with a full length die with no expander and using a mandrel versus FL with expander.
Even better with a bushing FL die

Same here.

 

[dusterdave173]

WOW! I just pulled the expander ball out of my die and measured before sizing and then after with no ball--Had no idea how much it was working the brass and shrinking it down so much on the neck. UMMMM Bradley at Urban is sending out a Wilson bushing die with bushings he estimates I need--Really looking forward to seeing how this all works out--I get it now--was an eye opener how far down my Redding was taking the neck.
I get it!

 

[6.5 forever]

Good deal to learn from the forum. Lots of knowledge.

 

[Dimner]

Be aware that you'll have to use bushings in steps of no more than 0.003-4"; if you make too large a change you'll induce runout. That's why many people use honed full length dies - you can go the whole distance in one step. Another alternative is to use a custom chamber with no more than 0.004" total clearance and a bushing die; note that usually means turning your necks as the variations in even the best brass could be a serious problem with that little clearance.

So I have wondered this for a while...

For those of us with a Forster BR die (unhoned as of now). How do we make an informed decision on what to hone it too? I would rather run a test on a couple different steps than just make a guess. Is the only way to buy bushing dies or a mandrel set?

 

[ronemus]

For those of us with a Forster BR die (unhoned as of now). How do we make an informed decision on what to hone it too?

You need to get yourself a ball micrometer to accurately measure neck thickness; after measuring at several points on several pieces you can decide whether it's worth neck turning. Usually the answer will be yes as even Lapua has quite measurable neck thickness variations. If you use multiple brands, you'll probably want to turn them all to the same thickness. The OD of a loaded round will be bullet diameter plus twice the neck thickness; the ID of a honed die will need to be t least 0.003" under loaded diameter to allow for springback; you can then use the brass as sized or use a custom expander or mandrel to bring the neck up to the desired diameter. Some folks will have multiple dies honed to different diameters so they don't need to size the neck up.

I choose to use a custom chamber reamer that is 0.004" over loaded diameter; that usually lets me use an off-the-shelf Hornady sizing die and a custom elliptical sizer that is at or slightly under bullet diameter. That minimizes working the brass. This does require that I pay careful attention to neck thickness and remove donuts when the form; I do that by turning the sized brass as the expander will move the donut to the outside of the neck. Turning is much easier than inside reaming and produces a better result. Donuts are a non-issue if all your loads are long, but usually need to be removed if you need to use magazine-fed ammo.