CCI NATO Large Rifle Primers

[divingin]

100% agree.

Any firearm that requires a thicker primer cup to prevent what is called slam fire IMHO is faulty and need be removed from service until fixed !

Well, that actually is the reason there is the thicker cup in the military primers.

Might be kind of a chicken/egg question though. Is it a mis-engineered rifle design, or a problem adapting a military design to a civilian rifle (with civilian ammo)?

 

[Homerange]

Well, that actually is the reason there is the thicker cup in the military primers.

Might be kind of a chicken/egg question though. Is it a mis-engineered rifle design, or a problem adapting a military design to a civilian rifle (with civilian ammo)?

So an arms manufacture that conceivably also sells to a civilian market defends such poor engineering by stating it was only designed for military ammo ?
I very much doubt they would open themselves up to the risk of such litigation resulting from injuries resulting from slam fires.

 

[jelenko]

So an arms manufacture that conceivably also sells to a civilian market defends such poor engineering by stating it was only designed for military ammo ?
I very much doubt they would open themselves up to the risk of such litigation resulting from injuries resulting from slam fires.

You're saying that Springfield has modified their M1A's and AR 15's; Fulton Armory has modified their M1A's, and M1's to ensure that they won't slam fire with any large rifle primer?
The same question on suppliers of AR15's and small rifle primers.

 

[Homerange]

You're saying that Springfield has modified their M1A's and AR 15's; Fulton Armory has modified their M1A's, and M1's to ensure that they won't slam fire with any large rifle primer?
The same question on suppliers of AR15's and small rifle primers.

I'm not saying any such thing but if a rifle slam fires it's poorly engineered or faulty.

That the Military uses a thicker/robust primer cup could be for all manner of reasons and not expressly to prevent slam fires although it seems it does.
Others have remarked their autos still mark primer cups which IMO points to an action fault.
The firing pin should never contact the primer other than after the trigger sear has been broken. Period !

 

[jelenko]

I'm not saying any such thing but if a rifle slam fires it's poorly engineered or faulty.

That the Military uses a thicker/robust primer cup could be for all manner of reasons and not expressly to prevent slam fires although it seems it does.
Others have remarked their autos still mark primer cups which IMO points to an action fault.
The firing pin should never contact the primer other than after the trigger sear has been broken. Period !

Well, if those companies haven't made the necessary modifications, I thought you were saying they are opening themselves up to litigation based on this statement: "I very much doubt they would open themselves up to the risk of such litigation resulting from injuries resulting from slam fires."

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

Nothing wrong with those, I have used those military primers in both 7.62 and 5.56. They are a bit heavier to avoid a double tap, which is more common in semi-auto. I also use Federal Gold Match, and they make a specific GM210MAR (trailing AR designater for SRP). Either CCI or Federal GM works for me. It's amazing how much primers have gone up in the past 5-10 years... If I can't get those I'll take non-match primers, and in the worst case I *might* use wolf...hehehe sometimes what's available dictates what you use.

 

[mace2364]

There are some rifles that actually require those types of primers.

For example, the MAS 49/56. The Hornady reloading manual specifically states that #34s need to be used when loading 7.5x54 for a 49/56.

It’s also not a bad idea for SKS and AK rifles as well.

 

[Doom]

Every semi-auto pistol or rifle that I know of is susceptible to slam fires to some extent, either due to firing pin inertia or to a raised primer.

I'm not saying any such thing but if a rifle slam fires it's poorly engineered or faulty.

That the Military uses a thicker/robust primer cup could be for all manner of reasons and not expressly to prevent slam fires although it seems it does.
Others have remarked their autos still mark primer cups which IMO points to an action fault.
The firing pin should never contact the primer other than after the trigger sear has been broken. Period !

The possibility of a slam fire can be minimized but not totally eliminated without seriously degrading the performance of the firearm. In particular the M1, M14, AR platforms have floating firing pins that can impact the primer and do in fact impact the primer on every chambering. The M1 and M14 have a provision that tends to limit the possibility but it is not 100% reliable. The AR has no provisions to prevent the firing pin from impacting the primer. It relies on the firing pin weight to limit the energy transferred to the primer.

 

[RegionRat]

Well said @Doom
In using common ammo for full autos, there has to be a sensitivity limit placed on the primers with many weapons in the inventory running from a closed breech.

 

[arlaunch]

Its a myth that the 34's can double as a magnum primer. I keep seeing that.

Its BS.

The 41's on the other hand, are a different story.

 

[Longtrain]

Every semi-auto pistol or rifle that I know of is susceptible to slam fires to some extent, either due to firing pin inertia or to a raised primer.


The possibility of a slam fire can be minimized but not totally eliminated without seriously degrading the performance of the firearm. In particular the M1, M14, AR platforms have floating firing pins that can impact the primer and do in fact impact the primer on every chambering. The M1 and M14 have a provision that tends to limit the possibility but it is not 100% reliable. The AR has no provisions to prevent the firing pin from impacting the primer. It relies on the firing pin weight to limit the energy transferred to the primer.

+1
These military or military clones especially those with free floating firing pins are designed to be fed by magazine or clip (Garand). Technically, not single loaded.
Being fed from a magazine or clip slows the inertia of the bolt and contained free floating firing pin from slamming into a round (primer), in the chamber.

Single feeding increases the speed and inertia of the firing pin as it closes on a chambered round. Primers that are thin walled or more sensitive may possibly detonate in these conditions. Hence, thicker walled or “military grade” primers may offer a bit of protection from an AD, but not a guarantee.

It was recommended where single loading was required, that rifles where the operator can manually and partially close the bolt on a single loaded round before releasing the bolt, may minimize the firing pin inertia on that chambered round and help prevent an AD.

Even if fed from a mag, clip or single loaded all these rounds will have a firing pin impression on the primer, prior to firing. Just the nature of the beast.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Dropped a round in the chamber, (no mag) tripped the bolt release and BANG!! Won't be doing THAT again. Need to do it to learn.
Out of maybe 1000+ reloads, no issues with CCI Mil Spec primers in my M1A.

 

[RegionRat]

@NorCalMikie , which primer was it when you had the slam fire?

 

[Acyr]

FYI. I just opened one of the 5K boxes of CCI 450 primers from Miwall.

They are labeling on the packages says 'OEM 450' 'Not for resale' 'Commercial use'.

Doesn't bother me, but, since I 'vouched' for Miwall, I just wanted to provides a heads up.

I ordered 5000 CCI 450 primers but got CCI 34 instead. Invoice said CCI450. I guess I'll keep these since I use LRP also.
Probably be a nightmare trying to get them swapped out anyway.

 

[SteveOak]

I was given a couple of hundred of these and used them interchangeably with regular CCIs in some cast bullet loads. No differences noted.

What are regular CCI's?

 

[NorCalMikie]

@NorCalMikie , which primer was it when you had the slam fire?

CCI 34 for 7.62 ammo BUT, it had nothing to do with the primer. It's the floating firing pin in the M1A that was/is the culprit!! All I use is CCI Mil Spec for my gas guns or BR primers in my bolt guns.
And all the primers were seated "below" the pocket surface. I double check that as I seat primers and inspect my brass.
The fact the round didn't get fed off the mag was the issue.
Bolt striping the round off the mag slows down so you're less likely to get a slam fire. I do single feed at times so I watch the bolt closing just for that reason. Same as neck sizing for the M1A. Never mind the nay sayers. If you know what you're doing, no issues.
The nay sayers are the ones that said the gun had issues, needed to be checked out by a smith before you shot it again and I would shoot my eye out??? That was probably 600 or 700 rounds ago and it's still working as expected.
No mag feed? That's a no no unless you know what you're doing and what to expect if you non mag feed.
NEVER to old to learn something new and you CAN teach an Old Dog new tricks.
The Guy at the next bench heard it happen, grinned and said "bet you won't be doing THAT again". He was a M1A shooter so he knew exactly what happened.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

What are regular CCI's?

#200’s

 

[NorCalMikie]

The firing pin should never contact the primer other than after the trigger sear has been broken. Period !

??? Unless it's a M14/M1A. Not sure about the AK or M16.

 

[RegionRat]

CCI 34 for 7.62 ammo BUT, it had nothing to do with the primer. It's the floating firing pin in the M1A that was/is the culprit!! All I use is CCI Mil Spec for my gas guns or BR primers in my bolt guns.
And all the primers were seated "below" the pocket surface. I double check that as I seat primers and inspect my brass.
The fact the round didn't get fed off the mag was the issue.
Bolt striping the round off the mag slows down so you're less likely to get a slam fire. I do single feed at times so I watch the bolt closing just for that reason. Same as neck sizing for the M1A. Never mind the nay sayers. If you know what you're doing, no issues.
The nay sayers are the ones that said the gun had issues, needed to be checked out by a smith before you shot it again and I would shoot my eye out??? That was probably 600 or 700 rounds ago and it's still working as expected.
No mag feed? That's a no no unless you know what you're doing and what to expect if you non mag feed.
NEVER to old to learn something new and you CAN teach an Old Dog new tricks.
The Guy at the next bench heard it happen, grinned and said "bet you won't be doing THAT again". He was a M1A shooter so he knew exactly what happened.

Glad it turned out okay. I'm sure it gave you a start.

Always made me look at the M14s and the Garands a little different.

They handed me a Garand in a class once upon a time when I was still learning the ropes....
It had a goofy trigger cause on the second shot it full auto-dumped the rest of the mag. The class used what was called a 1000 Inch Range (this was so they could use a pistol bay) and a reduced target that was narrow and tall with several bulls for the purpose of the training. That shot was an X on the lowest bull, but I think only the next shot was even on the board somewhere as the muzzle climbed with each shot followed by the ping of the clip.

The instructors all laughed. They called an alibi for me and put up a clean target, handed me a different gun and told me to start over. I'm not sure if that was a gag they pulled on me or if it was really just a problem with the gun.

I love the Garand and the M14, but after that I'm always a little leery of unfamiliar "school" guns.

 

[Homerange]

??? Unless it's a M14/M1A. Not sure about the AK or M16.

Thanks but I'll remain unconvinced any are of a safe design for civilian use when the firing pin is left floating.