Floating dies

[Murray Brook]

@three percent
The least expensive way of getting very low run-out, IMO, is sizing the case body with a Redding body die, and sizing the neck with a Lee Collet die. Neck run-out will be very good, then use a good seater die, Foster, Redding etc, and your #'s should be good. I have always found that the press as long as it isn't damaged is not that important in making straight ammo. JMO

 

[Ruger15151]

Are any of y'all floating everything on press
Let's say you have dies that have floating parts in them Redding competition seater die, bushing dies,mandrel die.
And even floating shellholder with rubber o-ring.
I'm going to give it a try but was wondering y'all's experience and wondering effects of floating everything including die, shellholder along with the dies I've mentioned.
I know there's been plenty of discussion but wasn't sure if those discussions meant everything on the press.

I have tried all the tricks that you mentioned until I realized its the design that causes most of the misalignment issues. The turret head has some clearance above the support shoulder that sits under the turret head. This space allows the tuurent head to spin freely. However, once the the base is pushed into the sizing die by the ram, the turret tilts until it contacts the shoulder underneath. It only takes a few thousands of tile to induce runout. You can have the straightest dies in the world but it the turret head tilts under pressure, you are going to have misaligned necks.

However, if you are concerned about having the least amount of runout (assuming you have good dies), you will need to purchase a co-axial press or invest in a Zero press.

 

[jimmymac]

My well used, loosey-goosey Partner press is one of the key things for my hand loading. That and a 59 cent 'o' ring......

Good shootin' -Al

The above is worth repeating. You do not need a high dollar press to make match quality ammo.

 

[AlNyhus]

The above is worth repeating. You do not need a high dollar press to make match quality ammo.

You're so right, Jim. The 'tighter' the press is, the worse the results may be.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have tried all the tricks that you mentioned until I realized its the design that causes most of the misalignment issues. The turret head has some clearance above the support shoulder that sits under the turret head. This space allows the tuurent head to spin freely. However, once the the base is pushed into the sizing die by the ram, the turret tilts until it contacts the shoulder underneath. It only takes a few thousands of tile to induce runout. You can have the straightest dies in the world but it the turret head tilts under pressure, you are going to have misaligned necks.

However, if you are concerned about having the least amount of runout (assuming you have good dies), you will need to purchase a co-axial press or invest in a Zero press.

Respectfully, I disagree with the last sentence. You can have excellent runout if the FL die does not size the case any more than is absolutely necessary, and it is a one piece die that has a neck ID that is correct for the neck tension that you want. I have a die that will give sized case neck runout of about t third of a thousandth when used on my old Rock Chucker (Of course I only use the best quality of brass and turn necks.) A friend who has a long history as an excellent benchrest shooter sizes his cases using a Partner press that has had its ram diameter reduced (.006 if memory serves) so that the press will not interfere with the case aligning itself with the die during FL sizing. With regard to Turret presses, I have a Harrell press that I modified slightly that works as well as the C presses that he makes. Those presses are probably the most commonly seen at short range group benchrest matches.

There are other issues that are related. An important one is the matter of what actually shows up on targets. Just because we can measure something with a gauge does not mean that small differences will be seen on targets. Testing is the only sure way to determine this. I see evidence that people are ignoring much more important problems that limit their accuracy while they obsess about things that, given the totality of their shooting program, probably will not be seen on targets.

Recently Erik Cortina made a video in which he said that after doing every possible thing to load the best ammunition, he decided that the time that it took was only justified if all of it made a difference on his targets, so he tested everything at 1000 yards and discarded those parts of his process that testing revealed did not matter. He did this to free up time in a busy schedule for more practice.

 

[WVRJ]

I loaded my first round of ammo in the summer of 1979.There was no internet.The only sources of information I had were a Lyman and a Sierra reloading manual and several older guys who tried to help me along,especially my uncle.I thought I was doing ok,given the very limited funds I had to upgrade equipment with.I was 18 at the time and trying to save money for a vehicle to take me to the woods and to the various rifle shoots in the area,so it wasn't like I could afford to spend a lot of money.I knew nothing about cartridge runout until I went to a local match where there were some serious benchrest shooters.I somehow managed to win my class,which was for hunting rifles,and I had a very good shooting 280 that I had a local gunsmith screw a barrel onto a M700 action for me.I did the rest of the work myself to save money.That was in 1981.I made a lot of progress in 2 years time.Not long after that,I began sowing my wild oats,and I got away from shooting other than a little before hunting season.Once I hit my mid 40's I straightened up,sobered up and got back into shooting and reloading in a big way.That was in 2006.I learned a lot from the internet,a lot from other shooters,and I started getting good at making smallish groups with several of the decent rifles that I had,but it seemed like I was stuck as to how small I could go,so I went down the runout rabbit hole.The first thing I tried was the o-ring under the die.Nothing gained.Then I tried another press,and I found an older Pacific press that had a tight fitting ram with the little steel retainer to hold the shell holder.I made a softer retainer out of spring stock so the brass could move around a bit and the results spoke volumes.Where I was getting runout so bad I could see the bullet wobble when I rolled it across the bench,now I had to use a dial indicator to see it.Much better,but still not perfect.I was still sometimes getting over .010 runout.I started replacing dies,using Wilson seaters and various sizing dies,and I was able to gain a little ground,especially when I used the Wilson seaters.I'm still using that old Pacific press today,and it does what I want it to do.I size with either a Lee collet die or the Redding type S full length die.I recently bought a benchrest full length die from Forster,and I have been amazed with the results to say the least.They do the best job of sizing brass that I've seen,period.I screw it tight to the press,no o-ring or any other way to loosen things up other than some play in the shell holder.They have worked some kind of magic with the expander ball,getting it so smooth that I can barely feel when it goes through the case neck,and between the Forster sizing die and the Wilson seating die,I don't even bother to check for runout,and my ammunition loaded like that is very good.Once I did a test with a very accurate 223 bolt gun that I built a few years ago.With my best ammo,measured for minimum runout,it will produce groups in the .2's and .3's,sometimes going into the 1's for 5 shots at 100 yards.I loaded ammo with the good dies that I have,and I loaded some with the cheapest dies I had.I shot several groups,picking the rounds with the least runout loaded with the best dies,and picking the rounds with the most runout loaded with the cheap dies,some of which exceeded .010.The average difference in accuracy was almost exactly a quarter of an inch for 5 shot groups at 100 yards.Add up the cost of the better quality tools,and you have a very expensive quarter of an inch.Sorry to have written a book,but there's a lot of conversation that can be had about the runout thing,and there's no reason for any of that conversation to be unkind in any way.

 

[paulT]

I have tried all the tricks that you mentioned until I realized its the design that causes most of the misalignment issues. The turret head has some clearance above the support shoulder that sits under the turret head. This space allows the tuurent head to spin freely. However, once the the base is pushed into the sizing die by the ram, the turret tilts until it contacts the shoulder underneath. It only takes a few thousands of tile to induce runout. You can have the straightest dies in the world but it the turret head tilts under pressure, you are going to have misaligned necks.

However, if you are concerned about having the least amount of runout (assuming you have good dies), you will need to purchase a co-axial press or invest in a Zero press.

Or a Rcbs Rockchucker supreme.

 

[paulT]

I loaded my first round of ammo in the summer of 1979.There was no internet.The only sources of information I had were a Lyman and a Sierra reloading manual and several older guys who tried to help me along,especially my uncle.I thought I was doing ok,given the very limited funds I had to upgrade equipment with.I was 18 at the time and trying to save money for a vehicle to take me to the woods and to the various rifle shoots in the area,so it wasn't like I could afford to spend a lot of money.I knew nothing about cartridge runout until I went to a local match where there were some serious benchrest shooters.I somehow managed to win my class,which was for hunting rifles,and I had a very good shooting 280 that I had a local gunsmith screw a barrel onto a M700 action for me.I did the rest of the work myself to save money.That was in 1981.I made a lot of progress in 2 years time.Not long after that,I began sowing my wild oats,and I got away from shooting other than a little before hunting season.Once I hit my mid 40's I straightened up,sobered up and got back into shooting and reloading in a big way.That was in 2006.I learned a lot from the internet,a lot from other shooters,and I started getting good at making smallish groups with several of the decent rifles that I had,but it seemed like I was stuck as to how small I could go,so I went down the runout rabbit hole.The first thing I tried was the o-ring under the die.Nothing gained.Then I tried another press,and I found an older Pacific press that had a tight fitting ram with the little steel retainer to hold the shell holder.I made a softer retainer out of spring stock so the brass could move around a bit and the results spoke volumes.Where I was getting runout so bad I could see the bullet wobble when I rolled it across the bench,now I had to use a dial indicator to see it.Much better,but still not perfect.I was still sometimes getting over .010 runout.I started replacing dies,using Wilson seaters and various sizing dies,and I was able to gain a little ground,especially when I used the Wilson seaters.I'm still using that old Pacific press today,and it does what I want it to do.I size with either a Lee collet die or the Redding type S full length die.I recently bought a benchrest full length die from Forster,and I have been amazed with the results to say the least.They do the best job of sizing brass that I've seen,period.I screw it tight to the press,no o-ring or any other way to loosen things up other than some play in the shell holder.They have worked some kind of magic with the expander ball,getting it so smooth that I can barely feel when it goes through the case neck,and between the Forster sizing die and the Wilson seating die,I don't even bother to check for runout,and my ammunition loaded like that is very good.Once I did a test with a very accurate 223 bolt gun that I built a few years ago.With my best ammo,measured for minimum runout,it will produce groups in the .2's and .3's,sometimes going into the 1's for 5 shots at 100 yards.I loaded ammo with the good dies that I have,and I loaded some with the cheapest dies I had.I shot several groups,picking the rounds with the least runout loaded with the best dies,and picking the rounds with the most runout loaded with the cheap dies,some of which exceeded .010.The average difference in accuracy was almost exactly a quarter of an inch for 5 shot groups at 100 yards.Add up the cost of the better quality tools,and you have a very expensive quarter of an inch.Sorry to have written a book,but there's a lot of conversation that can be had about the runout thing,and there's no reason for any of that conversation to be unkind in any way.

Forster manufacture some Great Sizing and bullet seating Dies
my custom honed FLS Die with polished expander works smooth as silk and produces Very straight Cases with very little runout 0.005-0.01 thou.

 

[JFrank]

Yeah this is kinda what I'm wondering is floating just shell holder alone enough to self center and If at some point to much slop in everything lining up becoming a problem.idk?
I'm debating this cause some people seem to think the self centering is a plus so what happens if everything is floating die,parts inside die and shell holder.
I know I know test it is the answer but my press can already float the die with the removable inserts and I started to do the rubber o-ring trick and got to thinking dang I'll be floating everything at what point does this go wrong or can it get real good.

Disclaimer I've been living under a rock far as precision or competition loading so I'm trying to catch up . thanks for any feedback

I live on top of a rock, what I’ve discovered as with many others is that concentricity is pretty far down the list of knobs to turn when looking for accuracy on target.
Floating dies imho seems a bit of a gimmick and not really much help either.

 

[WVRJ]

Forster manufacture some Great Sizing and bullet seating Dies
my custom honed FLS Die with polished expander works smooth as silk and produces Very straight Cases with very little runout 0.005-0.01 thou.

The first one I got didn't need to be honed.I was using a bushing die with a ,289 bushing for my 6,5 Creedmoor and that bushing size was giving me the best consistency with runout and very good velocity with ES usually in the single digits.When I got the Forster die it was sizing brass identical to the .289 bushing,and I think brass from it has less runout even using the expander,which is just so smooth that I don't think I would know if it was taken out of the die.Much simpler,and less expensive than bushing dies and mandrels.My shooting technique causes me a lot more grief than an extra thou of runout anyway,lol.So far,the few Forster full length dies I'm using have been nearly perfect for neck tension without getting them honed.And they're not too pricey either.I'll be adding them more as time goes by.Right now I'm focusing on the 6.5CM ,223 and 280AI.But I'll be getting one for my 308's very soon.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

The first one I got didn't need to be honed.I was using a bushing die with a ,289 bushing for my 6,5 Creedmoor and that bushing size was giving me the best consistency with runout and very good velocity with ES usually in the single digits.When I got the Forster die it was sizing brass identical to the .289 bushing,and I think brass from it has less runout even using the expander,which is just so smooth that I don't think I would know if it was taken out of the die.Much simpler,and less expensive than bushing dies and mandrels.My shooting technique causes me a lot more grief than an extra thou of runout anyway,lol.So far,the few Forster full length dies I'm using have been nearly perfect for neck tension without getting them honed.And they're not too pricey either.I'll be adding them more as time goes by.Right now I'm focusing on the 6.5CM ,223 and 280AI.But I'll be getting one for my 308's very soon.

I don’t know much but I sure like the ease of use on the Forster sizing dies. In fact I have their internal decapping rod with the high riding expander ball as a replacement in my Redding and RCBS standard dies.

 

[Chuckhunter]

How to visually check for neck runout without a gauge.

To Damn funny!

 

[Chuckhunter]

Someone mentioned Partner Press's, as you can see you don't need to have an obscenely expensive press to produce straight ammo All three of these presses will individually or collectively make ammo that has .0005 or less runnout. The Co-Ax Press was bought in 1973, it's actually A Bonanza, still my favorite but the Partners can be easily transported to the Range and attached to my portable reloading bench with a few Machine screws and wing nuts. Listen to Boyd, and do yourself a favor and test everything, it's the only way to determine what works best for you.

 

[MagnumW]

However, if you are concerned about having the least amount of runout (assuming you have good dies), you will need to purchase a co-axial press or invest in a Zero press.

You may be disappointed if you think the Zero has less flex than a Rockchucker. I get .004 flex between the shellholder and die with a Zero. It can make great ammo, tho. I've had good luck with an o-ring between dies locknut and press and always great concentricity with lee collet neck sizing. The zero with mods I've mention before and graduated shellholders with a die screw in tight work also.

 

[Ruger15151]

You may be disappointed if you think the Zero has less flex than a Rockchucker. I get .004 flex between the shellholder and die with a Zero. It can make great ammo, tho. I've had good luck with an o-ring between dies locknut and press and always great concentricity with lee collet neck sizing. The zero with mods I've mention before and graduated shellholders with a die screw in tight work also.

I don't actually own one myself. However, my Forster Co-ax press and BC Micron dies with Short Action Customs bushes induces almost zero runout. That being said, runout in my rifles does not make any difference on target at 1K so I stopped worrying about it years ago.

 

[Dave M.]

Purchase a concentricity gage and you will become a mental case in this area........but it will help you understand cheaper dies.......what are you looking for?

Waste of time and money checking brass concentricity. I’ve never been able to shoot the distance and I’ve yet to see one study showing a direct correlation between brass concentricity and accuracy.

 

[Dave M.]

I don't actually own one myself. However, my Forster Co-ax press and BC Micron dies with Short Action Customs bushes induces almost zero runout. That being said, runout in my rifles does not make any difference on target at 1K so I stopped worrying about it years ago.

EXACTLY ^^^^^ THIS

 

[JimSC]

To allow for the imperfections in the manufacturing of the die or the die retainer rings. Not all dies are perfect.

not sure where you get this from. Dies are cut with a one-piece through reamer like your rifle's chamber. A die is a press fit, in essence, when sizing a case you are doing a cold extrusion. Any misalignment of the neck and body occurs when the case is on its way out of the die and no longer in contact with the die walls

 

[6BRA]

Good info thank you

Is your ram and shell holder square to the threaded in die?

 

[Cecil S.]

not sure where you get this from. Dies are cut with a one-piece through reamer like your rifle's chamber. A die is a press fit, in essence, when sizing a case you are doing a cold extrusion. Any misalignment of the neck and body occurs when the case is on its way out of the die and no longer in contact with the die walls

^^^^^^This is why all dies are not the same. So you are saying the shoulder gets pulled with the up movement of the press. Isnt this the main reason for floating a die? As I understand it its the Locking rings that work against us.