VV 140 vs. VV 540

[gutpile271]

I've looked at 4 different burn rate charts and i'm trying to see how close 540 is to varget actually is. 4 charts and four different answers. Reason I'm asking is I found a new 8 pounder I forget about.

 

[Henryrifle]

Which cartridge(s) are you loading for?

Hank

 

[Hoot]

I don't know if this will help but according to Quickload, they're different enough that they're not a simple swap.
Here's a graphic. On the right are example loads in my 6.5x47 using 90% fill, pushing a 123 AMAX. At 100% fill, both are over pressure.


Hoot

 

[DiffEQ]

Its not Varget. In terms of burn rate only, I find N135 closer to Varget. N140 is slower.
I use both N135 and N140.
Nice thing to forget about, bonus points for the rediscovery.
Load accordingly, you'll be happy.

 

[Laurie]

I've been looking at that self-same question since we in the UK and Europe 'lost' all Hodgdon / ADI 'Extreme Extruded' grades among others thanks to the EU REACH regulations.

Here are links to two Target Shooter online magazine features using a 223 Rem F-Class rifle to compare VarGet against REACH-compliant possible alternatives.

The first sets the scene re cartridge, components and equipment and includes results with VarGet as the benchmark.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

The second reports on four Viht powders: N140, 540, 150, and 550

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

I'm in the process of finishing off the next part to this saga ('Reach-Out 8) which covers H4895 and four alternatives including N135. Whilst my maximum charge in these tests was 25.0gn VarGet, and 24.0gn H4895, 23.5gn N135 would be my equivalents at somewhat lower MVs.

As @DiffEQ says, N140/540 are in practice, slightly slower burners than VarGet. In the 223, I've found N135 to be 'faster', in fact in practical terms 'faster' than H4895 in that maximum usable charges are lower.

As @Henryrifle asks, what is the cartridge? This is a key factor.

The other thing to note is that N540 can give some really impressive performance in suitable applications. It is however, rather akin to the slower burning Alliant Re17 in that the performance has to be paid for in the form of accelerated barrel wear. The answer isn't to shun the grade, rather to be careful about not tipping the powder can over much. In the early days of F/TR, I and two friends procured identical Bartlein heavy profile 30-cal barrels and adopted N540 with 155gn bullets. We wore those barrels out in not that much over 1,000 rounds.

There are three key issues with N135: 1) it has a low bulk density therefore is a bulky powder and creates compressed charge issues in small cases like 223's; 2) it has a low specific energy compared to other N100 series powders, being the second lowest in this respect ahead only of N165. It has considerably less energy than either H4895 or VarGet; 3) it is considerably 'faster' than either burn rate charts or QuickLOAD's default values assume. Put the the first two together and this often results in modest MVs. The third can see pressures spike very quickly indeed if charges are pushed too far. N135 is the canister version of Viht's bulk powder used in standard 7.62 NATO ball cartridges with 144-147gn bullet weights.

 

[DiffEQ]

@Laurie, I found N135 to be one of the best powders for 35 Remington. I also use it in 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC and light bullet 308.
On an aside, I tried LeverEvolution (LVR) for 300 Savage, and it seems to be the absolute best performer out of my Model 81. I could find no load data on LVR for that cartridge at all. I had been using H380 but it was dirty and produced mediocre groups (irons).
The relevance to this thread, @gutpile271, is don't limit your thinking to just one or two powders.
However, if you're wed to Varget, wait it out 'til you find more. Everything else is just plinking.

 

[Laurie]

I found N135 to be one of the best powders for 35 Remington. I also use it in 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC and light bullet 308.

I can see N135 being ideal for the 35 Rem as you've found - ideally suited to this lower case to bore ratio design. I think I used it too in 6.8 SPC when I had one some years ago, but would have to look up my notes. In the Grendel, I've been using N133 with 120s with good results, but will be moving on to some 123s and 130s later this year, so N135 will get a try.

......... and of course light bullet 308, Viht's original application. After years of 308 use in long-range competition, I sold my last FTR rifle off a couple of years ago, but just had a Bartlein 13 twist barrel I've had sitting around for years put onto an old Paramount 'TR' rifle as a short-distance job in scoped form. I only ran the barrel in on Thursday and have a pile of test cartridges / charge weights already loaded to try over the coming weeks with 125s (Berger and Sierra) and 150gn FB Bergers with all the odds & sods of powder that fill up shelf space all over Castle Holland. N135 already has some trial loads ready, and I expect them to do well, in fact need them to do well as my aim is to buy as little powder as I can over the coming years.

 

[Mulligan]

135 is my choice over 140 or 540 in a dasher. I’m shooting 103-105 bullets. 140 pressures out way before 135. 540 differently gives you an extra gear if you like the go-fast button, 540 is amazing and accurate. In my testing, both 135 and 540 out preform Varget for accuracy. Having said that, Ms Sally Bauer has whipped my butt two years in arow using Varget at the Rendezvous Match.

CW

 

[gutpile271]

I still use varget in my 6br I seem to always be looking for a better mousetrap. That particular qu

Which cartridge(s) are you loading for?

Hank

estion woke me up in the middle of the night so thought I'd better ask.

 

[Laurie]

I still use varget in my 6br I seem to always be looking for a better mousetrap.

It might seem counter-intuitive, but Viht N150 is the 6BR / 105-108 bullet powder of choice in the UK and has been for a long time even before we lost VarGet. There are also happy N140/540 users, but not as many loading N150. (In retrospect, it's not that strange as in real-life as opposed to in burning rate charts, VGT and N150 act very similarly. The 308 Win F/TR people have known that for a long time.)

The Dasher version of the cartridge seems to act rather differently, and many users say that nothing beats VarGet. As a result, they've been begging, borrowing, and stealing every last part-can of VGT that they hear of. (No doubt, there will be tins of the 'banned' grades turning up for many years to come - I still hear of ancient tins of ICI Nobel rifle and pistol powders coming to light here, and the company closed down sometimes in the late 80s or early 90s.)

 

[marchx]

@Laurie what are you using with 105-109 bullets in 6BR/improved?

 

[Wally270]

It might seem counter-intuitive, but Viht N150 is the 6BR / 105-108 bullet powder of choice in the UK and has been for a long time even before we lost VarGet. There are also happy N140/540 users, but not as many loading N150. (In retrospect, it's not that strange as in real-life as opposed to in burning rate charts, VGT and N150 act very similarly. The 308 Win F/TR people have known that for a long time.)

The Dasher version of the cartridge seems to act rather differently, and many users say that nothing beats VarGet. As a result, they've been begging, borrowing, and stealing every last part-can of VGT that they hear of. (No doubt, there will be tins of the 'banned' grades turning up for many years to come - I still hear of ancient tins of ICI Nobel rifle and pistol powders coming to light here, and the company closed down sometimes in the late 80s or early 90s.)

Laurie,
Thank you for sharing your information and insights. I will be starting load work on a 223AI this spring. I am fairly well stocked up on Vihtavouri powders. This information has been very helpful. Keep up the good work. Good shooting!
Steve

 

[gutpile271]

It might seem counter-intuitive, but Viht N150 is the 6BR / 105-108 bullet powder of choice in the UK and has been for a long time even before we lost VarGet. There are also happy N140/540 users, but not as many loading N150. (In retrospect, it's not that strange as in real-life as opposed to in burning rate charts, VGT and N150 act very similarly. The 308 Win F/TR people have known that for a long time.)

The Dasher version of the cartridge seems to act rather differently, and many users say that nothing beats VarGet. As a result, they've been begging, borrowing, and stealing every last part-can of VGT that they hear of. (No doubt, there will be tins of the 'banned' grades turning up for many years to come - I still hear of ancient tins of ICI Nobel rifle and pistol powders coming to light here, and the company closed down sometimes in the late 80s or early 90s.)

I was mostly just wondering about a straight 6BR but I also use that powder in a 6.5 WSSM. Thank you for the information and your knowledge.

 

[TroyG]

Any idea what VV530 burn rate is like compared to the powders listed. I'm looking for something in the AR Comp and H4895 burn rate area. My experience with VV powders is that the burn rate is quicker than usually listed for the BR improved variants and 6x47 cases I use them in.

 

[Laurie]

N530 is a strange grade. I've tried it in various cartridges and load-combinations, but have rarely been impressed. As a result, I've only just finished off a 1kg bottle I bought 15 or 20 years ago, and certainly wouldn't consider replacing it.

However ................ ! That's no longer an option anyway as Nammo Vihtavuori announced late last year it was discontinuing N530 production (alongside N105 and N32c). They are low volume grades and lack production linkages to Viht's mainstream powder grades and its bulk commercial orders, so are expensive in production resources for the occasional production run. With orders at unprecedented levels, Viht cannot meet demand despite having more than doubled output over the last year.

I'm looking for something in the AR Comp and H4895 burn rate area.

Definitely not N530. N133 is a possibility. (N135 is far more bulky than this pair, and also has much less energy, so doesn't suit small case cartridges that well.) The nearest extruded alternative to H4895 I've found is Norma 202 if you can find that. H4895 / AR-Comp don't have many practical alternatives. Here's what I've been working on for H4895 in UK-available powders for a feature that will be published shortly:


Figure 1

QuickLOAD v.3.9 predictions for H4895 and Alternatives



Cartridge : .223 Rem. (30.5gn H2O fireformed case capacity)

Bullet : .224, 77, Sierra HPBT MatchK

Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch Barrel Length : 30.0 inch

(NB Long-freebore chamber so max loads are 0.8-1gn above those for SAAMI 223 Rem chambers!)



Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %. These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.

USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Fill Charge Vel. Burn P max P muzz Notes

% Grains fps % psi psi



Hodgdon H4895 97.7 23.8 2998 99.5 55000 5685 Benchmark Grade



Extruded (tubular) Grades

Vihtavuori N530 *C 94.1 23.1 2969 99.8 55000 5455 Discontinued

Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 96.9 22.9 2968 100.0 55000 4861 Double-based

Norma 202 *C 98.7 23.7 2967 100.0 55000 5266 Not imported anymore

Norma 201 *C 99.1 23.7 2958 99.7 55000 5447 Not imported anymore

Reload Swiss RS 40 92.1 22.9 2951 100.0 55000 5256 ‘EI’ + Hi-Energy

Lovex S060 97.5 23.1 2908 99.1 55000 5227

IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 104.2 24.3 2905 95.2 55000 5446 Discontinued

Vihtavuori N135 *C 105.0 23.2 2878 100.0 50229 4867





‘Ball-types’ (all double-based)

Lovex D073.5 92.2 24.1 2948 100.0 55000 5264

Lovex D073.4 90.5 23.7 2933 99.9 55000 5180

Ramshot X-Terminator *C 93.0 24.2 2933 99.0 55000 5396


Notes

RS40 is a 'Europe-only' powder (actually the canister version of that used in the Swiss GP90 cartridge, their equivalent to the 5.56 NATO). In any event, RS powders have almost disappeared here because of Europe's widespread rearmament and supplying Ukraine.

Shooter World doesn't do its version of Lovex S060 as far as I can see. The nearest US listed grade is Accurate-2015. (Until 2003 the Accurate Arms Co. XMR2015 on sale in the US was Lovex S060. On buying AAC, Western Powders switched procurement to General Dynamics in Canada and 'Accurate' is now part of the Hodgdon stable.)

Ball powders are still to be range-tested.

The above list is a QuickLOAD Charge Run Table. Most powders performed either close to predictions or reasonably so BAR yes, you guessed it, Viht N135 which acted as if it were much 'quicker'. My max load of 24gn actually produced 3,013 fps which equates to over 60,000 psi. The Viht listed maximum for 77s in the 223 in a SAAMI chamber / COAL (22.5gn) is likely about right, but lowish for many production rifles which have way over SAAMI length chamber throats. The 23.0gn max for the Sierra TMK is too high IME - if nothing else, it will be massively compressed for this bullet loaded to 2.26-inch COAL.

 

[Mulligan]

N530 is a strange grade. I've tried it in various cartridges and load-combinations, but have rarely been impressed. As a result, I've only just finished off a 1kg bottle I bought 15 or 20 years ago, and certainly wouldn't consider replacing it.

However ................ ! That's no longer an option anyway as Nammo Vihtavuori announced late last year it was discontinuing N530 production (alongside N105 and N32c). They are low volume grades and lack production linkages to Viht's mainstream powder grades and its bulk commercial orders, so are expensive in production resources for the occasional production run. With orders at unprecedented levels, Viht cannot meet demand despite having more than doubled output over the last year.



Definitely not N530. N133 is a possibility. (N135 is far more bulky than this pair, and also has much less energy, so doesn't suit small case cartridges that well.) The nearest extruded alternative to H4895 I've found is Norma 202 if you can find that. H4895 / AR-Comp don't have many practical alternatives. Here's what I've been working on for H4895 in UK-available powders for a feature that will be published shortly:


Figure 1

QuickLOAD v.3.9 predictions for H4895 and Alternatives



Cartridge : .223 Rem. (30.5gn H2O fireformed case capacity)

Bullet : .224, 77, Sierra HPBT MatchK

Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch Barrel Length : 30.0 inch

(NB Long-freebore chamber so max loads are 0.8-1gn above those for SAAMI 223 Rem chambers!)



Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %. These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.

USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Fill Charge Vel. Burn P max P muzz Notes

% Grains fps % psi psi



Hodgdon H4895 97.7 23.8 2998 99.5 55000 5685 Benchmark Grade



Extruded (tubular) Grades

Vihtavuori N530 *C 94.1 23.1 2969 99.8 55000 5455 Discontinued

Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 96.9 22.9 2968 100.0 55000 4861 Double-based

Norma 202 *C 98.7 23.7 2967 100.0 55000 5266 Not imported anymore

Norma 201 *C 99.1 23.7 2958 99.7 55000 5447 Not imported anymore

Reload Swiss RS 40 92.1 22.9 2951 100.0 55000 5256 ‘EI’ + Hi-Energy

Lovex S060 97.5 23.1 2908 99.1 55000 5227

IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 104.2 24.3 2905 95.2 55000 5446 Discontinued

Vihtavuori N135 *C 105.0 23.2 2878 100.0 50229 4867





‘Ball-types’ (all double-based)

Lovex D073.5 92.2 24.1 2948 100.0 55000 5264

Lovex D073.4 90.5 23.7 2933 99.9 55000 5180

Ramshot X-Terminator *C 93.0 24.2 2933 99.0 55000 5396


Notes

RS40 is a 'Europe-only' powder (actually the canister version of that used in the Swiss GP90 cartridge, their equivalent to the 5.56 NATO). In any event, RS powders have almost disappeared here because of Europe's widespread rearmament and supplying Ukraine.

Shooter World doesn't do its version of Lovex S060 as far as I can see. The nearest US listed grade is Accurate-2015. (Until 2003 the Accurate Arms Co. XMR2015 on sale in the US was Lovex S060. On buying AAC, Western Powders switched procurement to General Dynamics in Canada and 'Accurate' is now part of the Hodgdon stable.)

Ball powders are still to be range-tested.

The above list is a QuickLOAD Charge Run Table. Most powders performed either close to predictions or reasonably so BAR yes, you guessed it, Viht N135 which acted as if it were much 'quicker'. My max load of 24gn actually produced 3,013 fps which equates to over 60,000 psi. The Viht listed maximum for 77s in the 223 in a SAAMI chamber / COAL (22.5gn) is likely about right, but lowish for many production rifles which have way over SAAMI length chamber throats. The 23.0gn max for the Sierra TMK is too high IME - if nothing else, it will be massively compressed for this bullet loaded to 2.26-inch COAL.

I find N-135 to run about 1/4gr (.25 ish) faster than H4895 in my dashers.
CW