A Perspective - "Copper Fouling Lie"

[Bill Norris]

I’m sure he’s not a bad guy. I’m sure he also knew he was gonna stir the pot with his opinion, obviously he did. I also think it’s ok to disagree with him if one’s experience is different than his or his opinion. If he’s a vet he certainly has my respect in that regard, sounds like he knows quite bit about other subjects too but it’s ok to express a differing opinion than he presented when it’s comes to cleaning barrels.

I know all of us have our own journeys when it comes to barrel cleaning. I doubt any of them are the same but I think they have some common grounds too. My own experience has been all over the place, never cleaned my barrels enough early on, learned to clean them better as time went on and groups improved. Then there was a stage when I listened to another you tuber (a very long time ago I might add) who also has strong points of knowledge who said only clean when significant accuracy is lost, his opinion was you are removing the conditioning of the barrel when you clean and have to start all over filling the voids and imperfections. I tried that for awhile and didn’t have the same experience. Now, because of my own experience after many many barrels in many cartridges I clean fairly often. Thankfully I wasn’t blessed with extreme OCD but I do keep an arsenal of supplies and cleaning equipment on hand and use just about all of it in one firearm or another. There are still things I should do that I don’t, like own a bore scope, I haven’t done that because I know where it will go,

It’s America, everyone has an opinion, I’m just more selective in what opinions I listen to and I rely more on my own experiences than I have in the past. Experience and experimentation is the best teacher, instead of relying on someone’s opinion you have your own results to rely on, results you experienced. There are still you tubers I listen too but not many.

I always like it when a guy is sharing his experiences and options and says something like “This is what works for me”. I don't give a guy as much credit when he speaks in absolutes.

Agree 100%. I have learned there is very few "absolutes" when it comes to cleaning methods and results obtained from it. It all goes back to test for yourself and go with what works for you. However, I have to say I believe copper fouling will hurt accuracy.

 

[nakneker]

Agree 100%. I have learned there is very few "absolutes" when it comes to cleaning methods and results obtained from it. It all goes back to test for yourself and go with what works for you. However, I have to say I believe copper fouling will hurt accuracy.

Agreed.

 

[Bill Norris]

On a side note, I was re-watching the Video of Erik Cortina and Bart Sauter last night and when rifle cleaning came up Bart stated that he actually had tried running his barrel for longer periods of time between cleaning than he usually would and his words were "I didn't like it" so if we consider Bart's record and credentials in the the bench rest world we would also realize there has to be a valid reason for his ideas on barrel cleaning and why he cleans often. Certainly, carbon is a factor but I bet he would say copper is as well.

 

[jackieschmidt]

On a side note, I was re-watching the Video of Erik Cortina and Bart Sauter last night and when rifle cleaning came up Bart stated that he actually had tried running his barrel for longer periods of time between cleaning than he usually would and his words were "I didn't like it" so if we consider Bart's record and credentials in the the bench rest world we would also realize there has to be a valid reason for his ideas on barrel cleaning and why he cleans often. Certainly, carbon is a factor but I bet he would say copper is as well.

Bart is still primarily a Short Range Group Shooter, (he just dabbles in long range), The reason we do not seem to have all of the copper, powder, and carbon fouling as other Disciplines is the vast majority of us clean the Rifle after every group, whether we shoot 5 rounds or 25.

Most of us also clean immediately after each target, while the barrel is still warm.

It isn’t difficult to clean a barrel that never gets very dirty.

 

[Bill Norris]

Bart is still primarily a Short Range Group Shooter, (he just dabbles in long range), The reason we do not seem to have all of the copper, powder, and carbon fouling as other Disciplines is the vast majority of us clean the Rifle after every group, whether we shoot 5 rounds or 25.

Most of us also clean immediately after each target, while the barrel is still warm.

It isn’t difficult to clean a barrel that never gets very dirty.

Agree Jackie. That's why I always clean after firing my rifles. If you don't let the crud build up it's easy to keep it clean.

 

[K22]

He made several other mistakes as well, and threw in some contradicting logic here and there for good measure. It’s an objectively terrible video. I’ve never heard of the guy and can’t judge his body of work. But this one is so bad that it really hurts his credibility on anything.

His presentation was poor compared to the numerous other videos he has made, the majority of which were beneficial, at least I thought so. The use of the word "lie" was especially in poor taste.

He has over 160,000 subscribers and has been posting videos for many years. Like everything else you read and see, make your own assessment, take what you may think may be useable, test it to validate the validity and discard the rest.

Although I'm not a subscriber, I've followed him for years. I believe he is sincere in his beliefs and is trying to share his many years of experience which is considerable. However, he's not in the ultra-precision game of benchrest or F Class long range. If I was in that game, I would defer to the best shooters in those disciplines for guidance. From what I can discern, his appeal is mostly to recreational shooters and hunters.

 

[Shooter13]

I think that if that guy gets on the WWW and makes statements that are contrary to what is commonly regarded as facts and makes himself sound like a clown, then he should be called out as such. Him steering the average guy on cleaning a rifle probably can't hurt too much but if he's giving other "advice" on more potentially dangerous stuff then that could get a novice in trouble.
Just my opinion, carry on.
Gary

Politicians should feel the same way.........but they don't.

 

[K22]

The ear.th is flat. The check is in the mail.

There are two ways to be fooled.
One is to believe what isn't true,
The other is to refuse to believe what is true.

 

[drop_point]

His presentation was poor compared to the numerous other videos he has made, the majority of which were beneficial, at least I thought so. The use of the word "lie" was especially in poor taste.

He has over 160,000 subscribers and has been posting videos for many years. Like everything else you read and see, make your own assessment, take what you may think may be useable, test it to validate the validity and discard the rest.

Although I'm not a subscriber, I've followed him for years. I believe he is sincere in his beliefs and is trying to share his many years of experience which is considerable. However, he's not in the ultra-precision game of benchrest or F Class long range. If I was in that game, I would defer to the best shooters in those disciplines for guidance. From what I can discern, his appeal is mostly to recreational shooters and hunters.

I’ve seen him sporadically and I haven’t seen anything impressive.

 

[ebb]

This guy has never taken a look through a borescope.

 

[K22]

I kind of remember his video on copper fouling and thought it was more geared towards hunting. Just my take on it, if memory serves me correct. He took umbrage at those scrubbing their barrels to bare metal, to remove copper, only to build it back up for accuracy. Made sense to me at the time I seen the video.

Apparently, he's wrong based on the comments here.

I believe you are correct in that his advice is more geared towards hunters and recreational shooters.

Whether or not he is right or wrong I don't know. However, read the numerous testimonials on his website regarding this specific video. Many of his subscribers claim that they experienced point of impact problems after aggressive copper removal. The also report consistency was returned once they stopped that practice.

However, from what I could discern, these are mostly recreational shooters and hunters, not the top shooters in the game of benchrest or long-range precision shooting.

 

[K22]

This guy has never taken a look through a borescope.

I think you're correct. However, he should if a performance problem can be indisputably diagnosed by a borescope image. Apparently and I'm only guessing, he has not seen the need because the performance of his rifles and by extension his cleaning methods are meeting his precision standards.

 

[K22]

I’ve seen him sporadically and I haven’t seen anything impressive.

His videos on NRA precision pistol training are worthwhile. Like me, he is an NRA Certified Distinguished Expert in Precision Pistol.

His videos on S&W revolver maintenance are worthwhile. He's an S&W factory trained armorer.

His videos on defensive pistol craft are worthwhile. He's a retire police officer and his presentation matches the concepts of the defensive course I took many years ago given by a State Police Officer who was also a lawyer.

 

[K22]

Nothing I love more than listening to flat-earthers spur their garbage. It’s so priceless that I actually go out of my way to watch their videos.

The worse mistake is to have the best ladder, but for the wrong wall.

 

[K22]

I always like it when a guy is sharing his experiences and options and says something like “This is what works for me”. I don't give a guy as much credit when he speaks in absolutes.

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

When I was a young man, I believed in a lot of absolutes. Growing old and getting beat up by life has taught me to tread very carefully when it comes to people espousing absolutes, there are very few in life that I have seen.

Sharing experiences can be helpful but one must always be careful to try and ascertain if there is a cause-and-effect relationship. So, when someone shares something that I think might have merit, I test it. I like to know how deep the water is before I jump in.

 

[jimmymac]

The worse mistake is to have the best ladder, but for the wrong wall.

And here all along I thought it was better to have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

 

[nakneker]

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

When I was a young man, I believed in a lot of absolutes. Growing old and getting beat up by life has taught me to tread very carefully when it comes to people espousing absolutes, there are very few in life that I have seen.

Sharing experiences can be helpful but one must always be careful to try and ascertain if there is a cause-and-effect relationship. So, when someone shares something that I think might have merit, I test it. I like to know how deep the water is before I jump in.

Agreed, me too!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here's a perspective, too. I've been on here for a long time now. This forum used to be called 6BR(BenchRest) Forums. Then it became Accurate Shooter forums. It is becoming more of, "It only matters to accuracy if you shoot BR Forums".
Just the perspective of an old guy that's been here, almost from the beginning. Not right, not wrong, just different, with a lot more paying members and "perspectives" than it used to be.

 

[K22]

And here all along I thought it was better to have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

The right bottle is usually a good choice - the question becomes which bottle.

PS: Medicare doesn't cover frontal lobotomies anymore - they give you pills instead.

 

[jimmymac]

The right bottle is usually a good choice - the question becomes which bottle.

PS: Medicare doesn't cover frontal lobotomies anymore - they give you pills instead.

Basil Hayden isn’t a bad start or finish.