A Perspective - "Copper Fouling Lie"

[K22]

The one thing I have learned in 76 years on this planet, and it took me a long time to learn it, is that there are very few absolutes in life. In my experience, this is especially true in the sporting sports and most certainly in the topic of "the best way to clean a rifle." As evidence, just listen to several top award-winning competitors and you will see variations in their approach, but I think most of them if not all concur copper fouling is not desired for extreme precision shooting.

Anytime someone uses the word "lie" in an assertion they should make very sure that is the correct characterization since it will inflame passions. So, perhaps Mr. GunBlue490 deserves the harsh criticism posted on this forum and perhaps his point would have been better served if he titled the video, "My Experience with the Copper Fouling Issue" or something of that nature rather than stating his assertions as an absolute.

I would submit, that calling him names does not advance the sport. Instead, refuting his assertions with a technical based discussion or experiences has more value and is more helpful to us "non-expert" shooters who are still trying to figure out the "best" way to clean a rifle.

I have no clue on the best way to clean a rifle. I do have a process that works for me, but I have relatively modest standards. However, if I was going to enter the benchrest or F Class disciplines or other disciplines that requires extreme precision, I would gather information from the best shooters in the sport and emulate their practices.

However, for some of us that are just recreational shooters and / or hunters and want the simplest, cheapest, and most efficient way to clean a rifle without damaging it and to retain point of impact and "serviceable" accuracy for our chosen use, perhaps some of the less complicated methods have value. The best way I know to determine that is to test something rather than buy into it wholesale or reject it out of hand. That's something else I learned.

 

[BoydAllen]

The one thing I have learned in 76 years on this planet, and it took me a long time to learn it, is that there are very few absolutes in life. In my experience, this is especially true in the sporting sports and most certainly in the topic of "the best way to clean a rifle." As evidence, just listen to several top award-winning competitors and you will see variations in their approach, but I think most of them if not all concur copper fouling is not desired for extreme precision shooting.

Anytime someone uses the word "lie" in an assertion they should make very sure that is the correct characterization since it will inflame passions. So, perhaps Mr. GunBlue490 deserves the harsh criticism posted on this forum and perhaps his point would have been better served if he titled the video, "My Experience with the Copper Fouling Issue" or something of that nature rather than stating his assertions as an absolute.

I would submit, that calling him names does not advance the sport. Instead, refuting his assertions with a technical based discussion or experiences has more value and is more helpful to us "non-expert" shooters who are still trying to figure out the "best" way to clean a rifle.

I have no clue on the best way to clean a rifle. I do have a process that works for me, but I have relatively modest standards. However, if I was going to enter the benchrest or F Class disciplines or other disciplines that requires extreme precision, I would gather information from the best shooters in the sport and emulate their practices.

However, for some of us that are just recreational shooters and / or hunters and want the simplest, cheapest, and most efficient way to clean a rifle without damaging it and to retain point of impact and "serviceable" accuracy for our chosen use, perhaps some of the less complicated methods have value. The best way I know to determine that is to test something rather than buy into it wholesale or reject it out of hand. That's something else I learned.

My personal experience, and that of a lot of other people contradicts what he said. He was the one that chose to use extreme language to attract an audience. Given the magnitude of his errors, I do not think that it is inappropriate to call him out, or that it is necessary to write a lengthy, finely detailed response.

 

[Dave M.]

The one thing I have learned in 76 years on this planet, and it took me a long time to learn it, is that there are very few absolutes in life. In my experience, this is especially true in the sporting sports and most certainly in the topic of "the best way to clean a rifle." As evidence, just listen to several top award-winning competitors and you will see variations in their approach, but I think most of them if not all concur copper fouling is not desired for extreme precision shooting.

Anytime someone uses the word "lie" in an assertion they should make very sure that is the correct characterization since it will inflame passions. So, perhaps Mr. GunBlue490 deserves the harsh criticism posted on this forum and perhaps his point would have been better served if he titled the video, "My Experience with the Copper Fouling Issue" or something of that nature rather than stating his assertions as an absolute.

I would submit, that calling him names does not advance the sport. Instead, refuting his assertions with a technical based discussion or experiences has more value and is more helpful to us "non-expert" shooters who are still trying to figure out the "best" way to clean a rifle.

I have no clue on the best way to clean a rifle. I do have a process that works for me, but I have relatively modest standards. However, if I was going to enter the benchrest or F Class disciplines or other disciplines that requires extreme precision, I would gather information from the best shooters in the sport and emulate their practices.

However, for some of us that are just recreational shooters and / or hunters and want the simplest, cheapest, and most efficient way to clean a rifle without damaging it and to retain point of impact and "serviceable" accuracy for our chosen use, perhaps some of the less complicated methods have value. The best way I know to determine that is to test something rather than buy into it wholesale or reject it out of hand. That's something else I learned.

The way to clean your rifle to get serviceable accuracy compared to accuracy good enough to win competitions is miles apart. I spend a total of 1 hour per year cleaning my hunting rifles and that may be generous. Decide what type of gun you have, and shoot / clean it accordingly. My Remington 700 will hit a coffee saucer at 300 yards 98% of the time and that is way better accuracy than I need to fill the bed of my truck with fresh venison. That same accuracy would get me last place and laughed out of my local 600 yard club match. Everything is relative. The same way I don’t expect 1/2 MOA performance from my hunting rifle 100% of the time, I am virtually disgusted with anything worse than a 598/600 with my 6 dasher in 600 yard competitions.
Good luck and don’t let cleaning your rifle monopolize your thoughts. Get some patch out or thorough clean / thorough flush and a good pierce jag and cleaning rod, and don’t forget to use a quality bore guide. Do this and you will be doing a better job cleaning than half the guys I shoot with.
Dave

 

[K22]

My personal experience, and that of a lot of other people contradicts what he said. He was the one that chose to use extreme language to attract an audience. Given the magnitude of his errors, I do not think that it is inappropriate to call him out, or that it is necessary to write a lengthy, finely detailed response.

His use of extreme language characterizing copper fouling as "lie" was definitely an overreach and should not have been stated in that manner and should not have been characterized as an absolute.

I've watched all his videos over the years, and I believe what he was trying to say that in his experience of many years of shooting and hunting that he discovered that using the old school method of Hoppe's No. 9 and a bronze brush that he was able to maintain his standard of performance.

The OP of that thread asked for guidance regarding Mr. GlueBlue490 assertion that's why I created this thread to encourage a technical response to his assertion rather than just calling him an "idiot" so the some of us can learn from the experiences of others.

 

[ebb]

The ear.th is flat. The check is in the mail.

 

[Dave M.]

The ear.th is flat. The check is in the mail.

Nothing I love more than listening to flat-earthers spur their garbage. It’s so priceless that I actually go out of my way to watch their videos.

 

[Adam in WI]

Their explanation for gravity is a doozy

 

[jelenko]

His use of extreme language characterizing copper fouling as "lie" was definitely an overreach and should not have been stated in that manner and should not have been characterized as an absolute.

I've watched all his videos over the years, and I believe what he was trying to say that in his experience of many years of shooting and hunting that he discovered that using the old school method of Hoppe's No. 9 and a bronze brush that he was able to maintain his standard of performance.

The OP of that thread asked for guidance regarding Mr. GlueBlue490 assertion that's why I created this thread to encourage a technical response to his assertion rather than just calling him an "idiot" so the some of us can learn from the experiences of others.

I really appreciate the more balanced view - taking in more data. It's a big factor and important in what I try to do on a daily basis [project manager] to keep people from running around with their heads off.

That said.

I have to, in balance, go with the idiot theory.
While apparently his is knowledgeable/expert in some areas, he's enough of an idiot to make a video where he comes across as an idiot => idiot.

 

[47WillysGuy]

Has anyone ever heard of galvanic corrosion? If you haven't look it up and find out what happen between two dissimilar metals. Leaving copper in a steel barrel is not a very good idea IMHO.

 

[dcali]

That video is full of factually incorrect information. If he had simply shared his experience and opinions, he wouldn't catch much flak. We're all wrong from time to time, and most of us don't want to pass on incorrect information, but he went way out of his way to use extreme language and near Orwellian levels of doublespeak to communicate falsehoods. Judging by the number of comments on his video thanking him for good information, he needs to be called out more loudly and often.

 

[mikecr]

Right or wrong, there is no stopping YouTube Superstars...
They just go unchecked over there.

 

[jackieschmidt]

The way to clean your rifle to get serviceable accuracy compared to accuracy good enough to win competitions is miles apart. I spend a total of 1 hour per year cleaning my hunting rifles and that may be generous. Decide what type of gun you have, and shoot / clean it accordingly. My Remington 700 will hit a coffee saucer at 300 yards 98% of the time and that is way better accuracy than I need to fill the bed of my truck with fresh venison. That same accuracy would get me last place and laughed out of my local 600 yard club match. Everything is relative. The same way I don’t expect 1/2 MOA performance from my hunting rifle 100% of the time, I am virtually disgusted with anything worse than a 598/600 with my 6 dasher in 600 yard competitions.
Good luck and don’t let cleaning your rifle monopolize your thoughts. Get some patch out or thorough clean / thorough flush and a good pierce jag and cleaning rod, and don’t forget to use a quality bore guide. Do this and you will be doing a better job cleaning than half the guys I shoot with.
Dave

^^^^^^^
I agree with this.
I said he was “full of crap”. I should have taken into consideration the accuracy requirements of the firearm being shot.

 

[Gary in MD]

I think that if that guy gets on the WWW and makes statements that are contrary to what is commonly regarded as facts and makes himself sound like a clown, then he should be called out as such. Him steering the average guy on cleaning a rifle probably can't hurt too much but if he's giving other "advice" on more potentially dangerous stuff then that could get a novice in trouble.
Just my opinion, carry on.
Gary

 

[Eagle Six]

I have never watched any of his previous videos. I watched this one for about 30 seconds and that was enough. His blabber about copper fouling may not make him an idiot, but it surely makes him look stupid in the face of most. As far a cleaning copper I didn't get that far, just the claim copper fouling is lie pretty much sunk his credibility with me. He is not someone I would consider a dependable knowledge base.

So he falls in my idiot basket of those making stupid claims. And I have already wasted too much time on it.

 

[FNSafari]

I have never watched any of his previous videos. I watched this one for about 30 seconds and that was enough. His blabber about copper fouling may not make him an idiot, but it surely makes him look stupid in the face of most. As far a cleaning copper I didn't get that far, just the claim copper fouling is lie pretty much sunk his credibility with me. He is not someone I would consider a dependable knowledge base.

So he falls in my idiot basket of those making stupid claims. And I have already wasted too much time on it.

He's certainly no idiot. If he isn't trolling for views and comments, he made a mistake in using the word lie as has been pointed out. Generally I find his vid's informative when he sticks to hunting rifles and pistols and revolvers. I have no idea if he has ever been involved in accuracy shooting, but I guess not. Don't forget, he's from Massachusetts.

 

[K22]

He's certainly no idiot. If he isn't trolling for views and comments, he made a mistake in using the word lie as has been pointed out. Generally I find his vid's informative when he sticks to hunting rifles and pistols and revolvers. I have no idea if he has ever been involved in accuracy shooting, but I guess not. Don't forget, he's from Massachusetts.

Just for fun and to stir the pot some more, take a look at the numerous testimonials on his web site regarding this specific video.

 

[dcali]

He's certainly no idiot. If he isn't trolling for views and comments, he made a mistake in using the word lie as has been pointed out. Generally I find his vid's informative when he sticks to hunting rifles and pistols and revolvers. I have no idea if he has ever been involved in accuracy shooting, but I guess not. Don't forget, he's from Massachusetts.

He made several other mistakes as well, and threw in some contradicting logic here and there for good measure. It’s an objectively terrible video. I’ve never heard of the guy and can’t judge his body of work. But this one is so bad that it really hurts his credibility on anything.

 

[Xerothermic]

I kind of remember his video on copper fouling and thought it was more geared towards hunting. Just my take on it, if memory serves me correct. He took umbrage at those scrubbing their barrels to bare metal, to remove copper, only to build it back up for accuracy. Made sense to me at the time I seen the video.

Apparently, he's wrong based on the comments here.

 

[BoydAllen]

I kind of remember his video on copper fouling and thought it was more geared towards hunting. Just my take on it, if memory serves me correct. He took umbrage at those scrubbing their barrels to bare metal, to remove copper, only to build it back up for accuracy. Made sense to me at the time I seen the video.

Apparently, he's wrong based on the comments here.

I have a lot of experience with tuning up factory rifles in various varmint calibers, and that experience has taught me that he is flat out wrong, if the goal is to get the best accuracy out of a rifle. On the other hand if you are shooting big game at short to medium ranges, and all you care about is whether the animal dies, that is something else.

 

[nakneker]

I’m sure he’s not a bad guy. I’m sure he also knew he was gonna stir the pot with his opinion, obviously he did. I also think it’s ok to disagree with him if one’s experience is different than his or his opinion. If he’s a vet he certainly has my respect in that regard, sounds like he knows quite bit about other subjects too but it’s ok to express a differing opinion than he presented when it’s comes to cleaning barrels.

I know all of us have our own journeys when it comes to barrel cleaning. I doubt any of them are the same but I think they have some common grounds too. My own experience has been all over the place, never cleaned my barrels enough early on, learned to clean them better as time went on and groups improved. Then there was a stage when I listened to another you tuber (a very long time ago I might add) who also has strong points of knowledge who said only clean when significant accuracy is lost, his opinion was you are removing the conditioning of the barrel when you clean and have to start all over filling the voids and imperfections. I tried that for awhile and didn’t have the same experience. Now, because of my own experience after many many barrels in many cartridges I clean fairly often. Thankfully I wasn’t blessed with extreme OCD but I do keep an arsenal of supplies and cleaning equipment on hand and use just about all of it in one firearm or another. There are still things I should do that I don’t, like own a bore scope, I haven’t done that because I know where it will go,

It’s America, everyone has an opinion, I’m just more selective in what opinions I listen to and I rely more on my own experiences than I have in the past. Experience and experimentation is the best teacher, instead of relying on someone’s opinion you have your own results to rely on, results you experienced. There are still you tubers I listen too but not many.

I always like it when a guy is sharing his experiences and options and says something like “This is what works for me”. I don't give a guy as much credit when he speaks in absolutes.