Stacking tolerances - at the reload bench thru the target

[acloco]

No different than any other person on here, I like to build and shoot small groups.

There have been, untold number of posts about different steps to take, and, and, and......


Take a step back and consider........

For the most part, ALL of the reloading equipment we are using, is, nothing short of bulk production. Presses, shell holders, dies, brass, bullets, primers.

IF using shell holders, at the minimum, there are three different machining planes - base slot - fits in the ram, rim slot - case head fits into, and the depth of the slot for the case head.

Press - ram concentricity with threaded portion for dies (only considering the minimum).

Sizing dies - concentricity of bore, outer threads, bore/outer threads/decapping pin. Body or neck dies are in the same boat.

Brass - mass produced, regardless of brand. Some better, some worse, out of the box. Some "brass" is higher quality raw material.

Bullets - multiple factors.

Action - multiple factors

Barrels - multiple and multiple factors


At the end of the day, because NONE of the above are built with the same reamer, on the same lathe, by the SAME person, is never accomplished.


My point is, watching and reading the variety of posts and answers, most don't ever consider we are damn lucky to push the pointy object and hit a sub moa target with repeatability. To read some of the observations, especially the snarky, makes me shake my head. My favorites "I have been reloading for xx years and this is THE way to do this".

 

[jackieschmidt]

In the extreme accuracy game, there are a limited number of “things”;that will compel the next bullet to take the exact same path as the one before.

There are countless things that will cause it not too. We attempt to eliminate these as much as possible.

As a Short Range Competitor, both Group and Score, I think the performance capability of the rifle in our Discipline comes down to barrels, bullets, and tuning. Most of the other stuff is window dressing made up of products that someone else convinced us we must have.

 

[JEFFPPC]

In the extreme accuracy game, there are a limited number of “things”;that will compel the next bullet to take the exact same path as the one before.

There are countless things that will cause it not too. We attempt to eliminate these as much as possible.

As a Short Range Competitor, both Group and Score, I think the performance capability of the rifle in our Discipline comes down to barrels, bullets, and tuning. Most of the other stuff is window dressing made up of products that someone else convinced us we must have.

If they can't sell it, they make it irrelevant. I would add one thing to your list. The use of flags. Without them it's pretty much dumb luck.

 

[rayporter]

flags flags flags. we could have a long discussion here.
Wilbur used to want his a little tail heavy, if i remember correctly. he did not want his to fishtail. the flag was to respond and stay where it went.

Jackie uses bearings on his, i believe. i have really never seen his fishtail. if they did, it would be a bad bad time to pull the trigger.

if i had the tools and ability i think magnets would make a good bearing for flags.

but barrels and bullets? you cant tune a bad barrel or a bad bullet.

 

[Larry Koch]

Neck tension.

 

[David Christian]

No different than any other person on here, I like to build and shoot small groups.

There have been, untold number of posts about different steps to take, and, and, and......


Take a step back and consider........

For the most part, ALL of the reloading equipment we are using, is, nothing short of bulk production. Presses, shell holders, dies, brass, bullets, primers.

IF using shell holders, at the minimum, there are three different machining planes - base slot - fits in the ram, rim slot - case head fits into, and the depth of the slot for the case head.

Press - ram concentricity with threaded portion for dies (only considering the minimum).

Sizing dies - concentricity of bore, outer threads, bore/outer threads/decapping pin. Body or neck dies are in the same boat.

Brass - mass produced, regardless of brand. Some better, some worse, out of the box. Some "brass" is higher quality raw material.

Bullets - multiple factors.

Action - multiple factors

Barrels - multiple and multiple factors


At the end of the day, because NONE of the above are built with the same reamer, on the same lathe, by the SAME person, is never accomplished.


My point is, watching and reading the variety of posts and answers, most don't ever consider we are damn lucky to push the pointy object and hit a sub moa target with repeatability. To read some of the observations, especially the snarky, makes me shake my head. My favorites "I have been reloading for xx years and this is THE way to do this".

@acloco for those looking to find the razors edge of precision, what do you suggest going forward?

 

[acloco]

@acloco for those looking to find the razors edge of precision, what do you suggest going forward?

Keep trying. ....or Buy a lathe.

 

[wildcat3d]

Gunsmith

 

[mikecr]

Your load is forgiving,, or it's the end of the world
So don't panic

 

[Larry Koch]

Keep trying. ....or Buy a lathe.

Really a lathe is the best, unless you are great friends with someone who can do a great job and have lots of cash. Your own personal lathe puts you first all the time. And will hold its value until we switch to laser guns.

 

[K22]

Thoughts from an old shooter and what I've learned:

Stacking tolerances - yea, when you consider that it is quite amazing the precision that most firearms achieve even with factory ammo and reloaders like me that just do the basic essentials. However, I believe that the components including factory ammo, is much better than when I got into the sport in the late 60's. Also, some old myths have been dispelled but others have been created in their place.

However, I take a slight issue with your remark about experience. There is value in experience if you learn from it and make intelligent choices and changes. But, also, one should not be afraid to try something new especially if one is trying to address a problem. I agree that just because you have been shooting a long time doesn't mean you know it all if that was your point.

Before embracing a new idea or concept, I believe it is wise to test the assertion before jumping in wholesale. If you use performance on paper as the criteria, it's hard to imagine a better standard to test an assertion. For example, doing XYZ produces an improved ABC but does it show on paper or in other words, can a performance improvement be demonstrated.

While the variation in components and equipment surely are essential factors in precision shooting, the most significant factor (variable) I've learned in 50+ years in the shooting sports is the shooter. I've seen it in competition and in the hunting fields many times.

Also, tiny groups are nice, but I'll take a larger group (within reason) any day that has a more consistent, repeatable point of impact.

While one should never close one's mind to new ideas and methods, I feel a great sense of empathy for new shooters entering the sport with the information overload on the net. All of which is making the sport overly complicated and complex and potentially frustrating to a new shooter thus destroying the enjoyment aspect of the sport. It really isn't that complicated to clean a rifle or reload ammunition to produce a serviceable result for most applications.

 

[3Sigma]

I think you are mixing up tolerances and consistency.

Yes, everything has a tolerance in its manufacture. Yes, all of those interact with other pieces with their own tolerance.

I believe not all those interactions matter if kept within a reasonable range. A few are critical, like seating depth and shoulder bump, but others are less so.

I also believe that consistency is as important. For example a die that has a different dimension than a chamber should still provide consistently sized brass, regardless of the chamber. And, for many of us, this difference doesn't show up on target. For those at the sharp end of the spear, it likely does, hence the need for custom dies.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Thoughts from an old shooter and what I've learned:

Stacking tolerances - yea, when you consider that it is quite amazing the precision that most firearms achieve even with factory ammo and reloaders like me that just do the basic essentials. However, I believe that the components including factory ammo, is much better than when I got into the sport in the late 60's. Also, some old myths have been dispelled but others have been created in their place.

However, I take a slight issue with your remark about experience. There is value in experience if you learn from it and make intelligent choices and changes. But, also, one should not be afraid to try something new especially if one is trying to address a problem. I agree that just because you have been shooting a long time doesn't mean you know it all if that was your point.

Before embracing a new idea or concept, I believe it is wise to test the assertion before jumping in wholesale. If you use performance on paper as the criteria, it's hard to imagine a better standard to test an assertion. For example, doing XYZ produces an improved ABC but does it show on paper or in other words, can a performance improvement be demonstrated.

While the variation in components and equipment surely are essential factors in precision shooting, the most significant factor (variable) I've learned in 50+ years in the shooting sports is the shooter. I've seen it in competition and in the hunting fields many times.

Also, tiny groups are nice, but I'll take a larger group (within reason) any day that has a more consistent, repeatable point of impact.

While one should never close one's mind to new ideas and methods, I feel a great sense of empathy for new shooters entering the sport with the information overload on the net. All of which is making the sport overly complicated and complex and potentially frustrating to a new shooter thus destroying the enjoyment aspect of the sport. It really isn't that complicated to clean a rifle or reload ammunition to produce a serviceable result for most applications.

^^^^^^^
Especially the last paragraph.

 

[LHSmith]

Also, tiny groups are nice, but I'll take a larger group (within reason) any day that has a more consistent, repeatable point of impact.

You have just confessed to being a closet Benchrester because you just described competitive SCORE shooting where POI trumps everything-where your ultimate goal is to totally obliterate a 1/16" moa dot on 25 record targets over a course of a few hours where conditions invariably change. Like GH hunting but with benches, comfy seats, and a lot more doodads, and a lot more shooting. The prize being an embroidered patch vs. having to field dress a mangy marmot or 2.

 

[wildcat3d]

Really a lathe is the best, unless you are great friends with someone who can do a great job and have lots of cash. Your own personal lathe puts you first all the time. And will hold its value until we switch to laser guns.

If You can buy a lath and have a place to put it , You have a lot of Cash...

 

[acloco]

If You can buy a lath and have a place to put it , You have a lot of Cash...

I have resisted purchasing a lathe, for the simple reason, I don't want a second job OR to be tied to that machine.

Fully realize, that time on machine, might produce better output on the range for me. Again, me being the loose nut in the equation.


Not afraid to take chances.

Not afraid to try something new.

Not afraid of change.

Frustrated at performance on paper. I have good days, but more bad days.

 

[acloco]

Thoughts from an old shooter and what I've learned:

Stacking tolerances - yea, when you consider that it is quite amazing the precision that most firearms achieve even with factory ammo and reloaders like me that just do the basic essentials. However, I believe that the components including factory ammo, is much better than when I got into the sport in the late 60's. Also, some old myths have been dispelled but others have been created in their place.

However, I take a slight issue with your remark about experience. There is value in experience if you learn from it and make intelligent choices and changes. But, also, one should not be afraid to try something new especially if one is trying to address a problem. I agree that just because you have been shooting a long time doesn't mean you know it all if that was your point.

Before embracing a new idea or concept, I believe it is wise to test the assertion before jumping in wholesale. If you use performance on paper as the criteria, it's hard to imagine a better standard to test an assertion. For example, doing XYZ produces an improved ABC but does it show on paper or in other words, can a performance improvement be demonstrated.

While the variation in components and equipment surely are essential factors in precision shooting, the most significant factor (variable) I've learned in 50+ years in the shooting sports is the shooter. I've seen it in competition and in the hunting fields many times.

Also, tiny groups are nice, but I'll take a larger group (within reason) any day that has a more consistent, repeatable point of impact.

While one should never close one's mind to new ideas and methods, I feel a great sense of empathy for new shooters entering the sport with the information overload on the net. All of which is making the sport overly complicated and complex and potentially frustrating to a new shooter thus destroying the enjoyment aspect of the sport. It really isn't that complicated to clean a rifle or reload ammunition to produce a serviceable result for most applications.

Agreed. I have nothing to debate with your response....AND experience!!!

 

[jackieschmidt]

I have resisted purchasing a lathe, for the simple reason, I don't want a second job OR to be tied to that machine.

Fully realize, that time on machine, might produce better output on the range for me. Again, me being the loose nut in the equation.


Not afraid to take chances.

Not afraid to try something new.

Not afraid of change.

Frustrated at performance on paper. I have good days, but more bad days.

I know several Benchrest Shooters who, with little or no machine shop experienced, bought a suitable lathe, learned the basics of barrel work, and are now doing their own barrels with good results.

Most of the stuff you read on the Forums seem to be geared toward scaring people about the mystique of the whole thing.

A little mechanical aptitude and common sense is all that is needed.

 

[Old Navy]

Thoughts from an old shooter and what I've learned:

Stacking tolerances - yea, when you consider that it is quite amazing the precision that most firearms achieve even with factory ammo and reloaders like me that just do the basic essentials. However, I believe that the components including factory ammo, is much better than when I got into the sport in the late 60's. Also, some old myths have been dispelled but others have been created in their place.

However, I take a slight issue with your remark about experience. There is value in experience if you learn from it and make intelligent choices and changes. But, also, one should not be afraid to try something new especially if one is trying to address a problem. I agree that just because you have been shooting a long time doesn't mean you know it all if that was your point.

Before embracing a new idea or concept, I believe it is wise to test the assertion before jumping in wholesale. If you use performance on paper as the criteria, it's hard to imagine a better standard to test an assertion. For example, doing XYZ produces an improved ABC but does it show on paper or in other words, can a performance improvement be demonstrated.

While the variation in components and equipment surely are essential factors in precision shooting, the most significant factor (variable) I've learned in 50+ years in the shooting sports is the shooter. I've seen it in competition and in the hunting fields many times.

Also, tiny groups are nice, but I'll take a larger group (within reason) any day that has a more consistent, repeatable point of impact.

While one should never close one's mind to new ideas and methods, I feel a great sense of empathy for new shooters entering the sport with the information overload on the net. All of which is making the sport overly complicated and complex and potentially frustrating to a new shooter thus destroying the enjoyment aspect of the sport. It really isn't that complicated to clean a rifle or reload ammunition to produce a serviceable result for most applications.

Good post!

 

[Old Navy]

I know several Benchrest Shooters who, with little or no machine shop experienced, bought a suitable lathe, learned the basics of barrel work, and are now doing their own barrels with good results.

Most of the stuff you read on the Forums seem to be geared toward scaring people about the mystique of the whole thing.

A little mechanical aptitude and common sense is all that is needed.

A mechanical background would help for sure.