Yugo M48 Mauser 300WSM

[jackieschmidt]

All of the European made Mausers of that era (1891 thru 1898) started out as a red hot billet under a drop hammer, and forged into their basic shape and then machined. That's all forging is , hammering a piece into rough, basic shape. Makes for less machining and lower overall cost in the end. The Yugo 24/47 is a darned tough Mauser '98 style action. I have little experience with the model 48 as it uses stamped bottom metal and doesn't have the overall fit and finish of the 24.

When people see the word “forged”, many automatically relate it to “strength”.

Truth is, it is simply a manufacturing process, usually performed to save on machining and tooling cost.

The strength of materials is predicated by the alloying elements, the cleanliness of the material at the molecular level, and the proper tempering to obtain the desired properties, usually a compromise between tensile and yield strength, hardness, and ductility.

 

[SixFive]

When people see the word “forged”, many automatically relate it to “strength”.

Truth is, it is simply a manufacturing process, usually performed to save on machining and tooling cost.

The strength of materials is predicated by the alloying elements, the cleanliness of the material at the molecular level, and the proper tempering to obtain the desired properties, usually a compromise between tensile and yield strength, hardness, and ductility.

I respectfully disagree in part as forged parts have a 26% higher tensile strength than the same cast parts. Forged parts have a 37% higher fatigue strength resulting in a much longer lifespan than cast parts. Since the material is never melted, the percussive or compressive forces applied during forging force the grain to follow the flow of the finished product. This creates components that are far stronger than their machined and cast counterparts. Forging drives dynamic recrystallization of cast structure creating fine grained material resulting in improved fatigue properties and impact toughness.That is why the US military required forged receivers for the M1 and M14 and they lasted dang near forever. Granted there are other factors like heat treatment etc, but pound for pound forging IS stronger.

 

[shortgrass]

I respectfully disagree in part as forged parts have a 26% higher tensile strength than the same cast parts. Forged parts have a 37% higher fatigue strength resulting in a much longer lifespan than cast parts. Since the material is never melted, the percussive or compressive forces applied during forging force the grain to follow the flow of the finished product. This creates components that are far stronger than their machined and cast counterparts. Forging drives dynamic recrystallization of cast structure creating fine grained material resulting in improved fatigue properties and impact toughness.That is why the US military required forged receivers for the M1 and M14 and they lasted dang near forever. Granted there are other factors like heat treatment etc, but pound for pound forging IS stronger.

Who, in this thread, said anything about "cast"? You are making a non-argument. Seems you don't know what you don't know. Jackie is absolutely correct, "toughness" depends more on the alloy used than if the 'part' is forged or from bar stock.

 

[SixFive]

Who, in this thread, said anything about "cast"? You are making a non-argument. Seems you don't know what you don't know. Jackie is absolutely correct, "toughness" depends more on the alloy used than if the 'part' is forged or from bar stock.

I did not only talk about cast I also mentioned machined. I am a machinist, I have a good deal of understanding around metal and its properties. Read thoroughly the previous post, it was NOT only talking about "cast". Telling me "You don't know what you don't know" tells me you are emotionally responding without education. Anyone who thinks Forging is an inferior process in firearm manufacturer is not well versed. Given the same quality "property, alloy, treatment" of metal, forging is stronger, period, that was the point. I am not trying to argue with anyone, I was respectful. All things being equal toughness is higher in FORGED parts, that was the point not a "non argument". If you like I can point you to scientific literature to support my statements.

Jackie is correct about the alloys, elements etc but I wanted to educate further around forging and make sure it is understood it is NOT just a cost savings process, it is superior in firearm manufacturing for toughness and durability. Jackie stated "truth is, it is simply a manufacturing process, usually performed to save on machining and tooling cost." that is simply NOT factual.

Just ask NASCAR how their pistons are made, FORGED, they are not trying to save money, they need the ultimate in strength. Understand my point now?

 

[shortgrass]

Ya' I don't know anything. Started maching for a living in 1974, bothered to go and graduate from an accredited, in residence gunsmith school ,'91 through '93. I've cut a lot of bar stock and a train car pile of forgings in my day. A forged part is no tougher than a part made of bar stock being of the same steel alloy with the same heat treatment. They meet the same specs. Just less metal to be removed from a forging to make the 'part'. Have a good day! (Jackie didn't fall off the "Turnip Truck" yesterday, either)

 

[SixFive]

Ya' I don't know anything. Started maching for a living in 1974, bothered to go and graduate from an accredited, in residence gunsmith school ,'91 through '93. I've cut a lot of bar stock and a train car pile of forgings in my day. A forged part is no tougher than a part made of bar stock being of the same steel alloy with the same heat treatment. They meet the same specs. Just less metal to be removed from a forging to make the 'part'. Have a good day!

You are wrong, but if you choose to keep being wrong that is OK, I am just stating scientific facts and trying to accurately debate what I perceived as an inaccuracy around forging is done to save costs.

Forging structure is a result of breaking coarse cast structure and forming at first stage grain structure having fibrous character with elongated grains oriented in the direction of the forging stresses. The fibrous grain structure is then converted to the fine equiaxed grain structure (recrystallization process).

Small shrinkage and gas pores are closed up in the hot forging operation, non-metallic inclusions break up and distribute more uniformly.

As a result mechanical properties and homogeneity of the forged parts are improved. I respect your years of experience, I however imagine the work you described, you would never really see (or feel) a difference. This does not mean however that forging does not molecularly change the structure of metal for the better, it does. That is why when strength and durability count, manufactures look to forgings.

Forged receivers, crankshafts, pistons, etc...

 

[Tinman102000]

I know I am late to the party, LOL. I have a question. I bought a 25-06 on an M24 action with a junk stock for pennies. Are M48 and M24 stocks interchangeable ?

 

[Sniperhandle]

I know I am late to the party, LOL. I have a question. I bought a 25-06 on an M24 action with a junk stock for pennies. Are M48 and M24 stocks interchangeable ?

No, The M48 action is about 1/4 shorter than the M24, They are known as intermediate actions, AT least from memory.

But to be sure measure your action screw spacing, For the standard Model 98 Mauser they are 7 7/8 inches.

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

You are wrong, but if you choose to keep being wrong that is OK, I am just stating scientific facts and trying to accurately debate what I perceived as an inaccuracy around forging is done to save costs.

Forging structure is a result of breaking coarse cast structure and forming at first stage grain structure having fibrous character with elongated grains oriented in the direction of the forging stresses. The fibrous grain structure is then converted to the fine equiaxed grain structure (recrystallization process).

Small shrinkage and gas pores are closed up in the hot forging operation, non-metallic inclusions break up and distribute more uniformly.

As a result mechanical properties and homogeneity of the forged parts are improved. I respect your years of experience, I however imagine the work you described, you would never really see (or feel) a difference. This does not mean however that forging does not molecularly change the structure of metal for the better, it does. That is why when strength and durability count, manufactures look to forgings.

Forged receivers, crankshafts, pistons, etc...

Not trying to intrude in a debate to which I was not invited, but SixFive does have a point. Forging can align the grain structure in ways that increase strength. I know that it can also be a shortcut to reduce machining time, but anyone who knows anything about metal will admit that rolled threads are significantly stronger than cut threads.
If you disagree, don't argue with me, take it up with Machinery's Handbook.
I am in awe of guys with your level of experience, Jackie and Shortgrass, but this is one time where I have to take the other side.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Not trying to intrude in a debate to which I was not invited, but SixFive does have a point. Forging can align the grain structure in ways that increase strength. I know that it can also be a shortcut to reduce machining time, but anyone who knows anything about metal will admit that rolled threads are significantly stronger than cut threads.
If you disagree, don't argue with me, take it up with Machinery's Handbook.
I am in awe of guys with your level of experience, Jackie and Shortgrass, but this is one time where I have to take the other side.

On second thought, (and maybe third), a forging does increase the potential properties of a given steel, if for any other reason it helps pound out some of the inclusions in sub standard billets.

I was thinking more in terms of modern steels manufactured under an extremely controlled process such as Vacuum Air Remelts.

I stand corrected.

 

[pintopete]

I’m pretty sure the threads on ARP fasteners for car racing applications are rolled.

On the Mauser action length subject…

 

[pintopete]

By forum member ForrestB

M98 STANDARD LENGTH ACTIONS

I am going to group different actions by length, ring diameter, and barrel shank diameter. The first group will be Type I, these are the "most standard" Mausers. Probably 75% or more of all Mausers produced after 1898 will fall into this category. I am not going to list every model, that would take a book of it's own, but if your particular model is not listed, comparing the dimensions will place it into the correct category. So here are the dimensions for

Type I:
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

Some of the models that fall into Type I are:
Chilean M1912, Steyr
GEW 98, various mfr's
Brazilian M1908/34, Brno
VZ24, 98/22, 98/29, Brno
M1908 Brazilian, DWM
M1909 Argentine, DWM
M24/30 Venezuelan, FN
M1935 Peruvian, FN
Standard Modell, Mauser Oberndorf
K98k, various mfr's

Remember that the above list is not all-inclusive, the truth is, MOST M98 Mausers fall into this category.


Type II, standard length, small ring, small shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

This is pretty much a Czechoslovakian design, the main members of this group are the VZ33 and the G33-40, a commercial version is the VZ47.


Type III, standard length, small ring, large shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7,835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

As you can see by comparing the receiver ring diameter and the barrel shank diameter, there is not a lot of meat left in this receiver! The main example is the Kar98, and for obvious reasons, it is not wise to rechamber these to a high pressure cartridge.


Type IV, standard length, small ring, small shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

These are mainly commercial models, they are identical to Type II, with the exception of a longer magazine to handle 30-06 length cartridges. Main examples are the Husqvarna commercial action, and the Brno ZG47.


Type V, standard length, large ring, large shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

This is a beefier version of the Type IV. It is typified by the late FN commercial actions.


M98 INTERMEDIATE LENGTH ACTIONS

This is actually a fairly small group of models, the amount of headaches these cause (when trying to find a part or stock) is way out of proportion to the number of models. Most of these will have some part of the action shortened to save weight. Starting off with Type VI:

Type VI, Oberndorf intermediate action
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.115
Receiver ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

I call this the Oberndorf intermediate action, as they are the only ones who produced it. Commonly encountered models include:
1903 Turk
1909 Peruvian
1935 Argentine
Oberndorf Commercial

The 1903 Turk and the 1909 Peruvian also share some other qualities. They both have a very high clip bridge, and a long curved arm on the ejector box that puts pressure on a stripper clip loaded into the receiver, holding it in place. The 1935 Argentine and the Oberndorf commercial action do not have this.
This type has a longer than normal receiver ring, and a longer than normal cocking piece, with a shorter than normal bolt body, hard to figure where the weight savings come in!
The Oberndorf commercial action was also available in a small ring version, all other dimensions identical.


Type VII, FN24 and Yugo actions
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.115
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

This is the FN M24 action, and the Yugoslavian M48 series. I call this group the Yugoslavian intermediate action. There is also a Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican, see below.


Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

I call the Type VIIA the Mexican large ring action. The only difference between the Type VII and VIIA is the length of the bolt body (0.050 difference).


Type VIII, small ring Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.080
Magazine length: 3.118
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

The Type VIII has the shortest bolt body in this group. Common models are the Mexican M1910, and M1936. Either one can be found manufactured by FN or Fabrica de Armas in Mexico City.

LONG AND SHORT ACTIONS

Now we are into the expensive stuff! The long actions and short actions are commercial only. The long actions are divided into 2 types, the "British" type and the French type. The British type are not necessarily made in England, but are usually chambered for British cartridges, such as the .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery. The French type is even longer than the British type, but the French type is actually made in France.

Type IX, British Type, aka M98 long, aka Commercial Magnum
Action OAL: 9.150
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.770
Magazine length: 3.640/3.840
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank


Type X, French Type, aka French Magnum, aka Brevex Magnum
Action OAL: 9.240
Recvr screws, center to center: 8.207
Bolt body length: 6.740
Magazine length: 3.900
Recvr ring dia: 1.500, X-large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.141, X-large shank.

Notice that the French magnum is larger in every dimension than the British magnum, but the French bolt is shorter by .030"



Type XI, "True" short action, aka Commercial Kurz
Action OAL: 8.125
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.225
Bolt body length: 5.760
Magazine length: 2.725
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

 

[Sniperhandle]

By forum member ForrestB

M98 STANDARD LENGTH ACTIONS

I am going to group different actions by length, ring diameter, and barrel shank diameter. The first group will be Type I, these are the "most standard" Mausers. Probably 75% or more of all Mausers produced after 1898 will fall into this category. I am not going to list every model, that would take a book of it's own, but if your particular model is not listed, comparing the dimensions will place it into the correct category. So here are the dimensions for

Type I:
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

Some of the models that fall into Type I are:
Chilean M1912, Steyr
GEW 98, various mfr's
Brazilian M1908/34, Brno
VZ24, 98/22, 98/29, Brno
M1908 Brazilian, DWM
M1909 Argentine, DWM
M24/30 Venezuelan, FN
M1935 Peruvian, FN
Standard Modell, Mauser Oberndorf
K98k, various mfr's

Remember that the above list is not all-inclusive, the truth is, MOST M98 Mausers fall into this category.


Type II, standard length, small ring, small shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

This is pretty much a Czechoslovakian design, the main members of this group are the VZ33 and the G33-40, a commercial version is the VZ47.


Type III, standard length, small ring, large shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7,835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

As you can see by comparing the receiver ring diameter and the barrel shank diameter, there is not a lot of meat left in this receiver! The main example is the Kar98, and for obvious reasons, it is not wise to rechamber these to a high pressure cartridge.


Type IV, standard length, small ring, small shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

These are mainly commercial models, they are identical to Type II, with the exception of a longer magazine to handle 30-06 length cartridges. Main examples are the Husqvarna commercial action, and the Brno ZG47.


Type V, standard length, large ring, large shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

This is a beefier version of the Type IV. It is typified by the late FN commercial actions.


M98 INTERMEDIATE LENGTH ACTIONS

This is actually a fairly small group of models, the amount of headaches these cause (when trying to find a part or stock) is way out of proportion to the number of models. Most of these will have some part of the action shortened to save weight. Starting off with Type VI:

Type VI, Oberndorf intermediate action
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.115
Receiver ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

I call this the Oberndorf intermediate action, as they are the only ones who produced it. Commonly encountered models include:
1903 Turk
1909 Peruvian
1935 Argentine
Oberndorf Commercial

The 1903 Turk and the 1909 Peruvian also share some other qualities. They both have a very high clip bridge, and a long curved arm on the ejector box that puts pressure on a stripper clip loaded into the receiver, holding it in place. The 1935 Argentine and the Oberndorf commercial action do not have this.
This type has a longer than normal receiver ring, and a longer than normal cocking piece, with a shorter than normal bolt body, hard to figure where the weight savings come in!
The Oberndorf commercial action was also available in a small ring version, all other dimensions identical.


Type VII, FN24 and Yugo actions
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.115
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

This is the FN M24 action, and the Yugoslavian M48 series. I call this group the Yugoslavian intermediate action. There is also a Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican, see below.


Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

I call the Type VIIA the Mexican large ring action. The only difference between the Type VII and VIIA is the length of the bolt body (0.050 difference).


Type VIII, small ring Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.080
Magazine length: 3.118
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

The Type VIII has the shortest bolt body in this group. Common models are the Mexican M1910, and M1936. Either one can be found manufactured by FN or Fabrica de Armas in Mexico City.

LONG AND SHORT ACTIONS

Now we are into the expensive stuff! The long actions and short actions are commercial only. The long actions are divided into 2 types, the "British" type and the French type. The British type are not necessarily made in England, but are usually chambered for British cartridges, such as the .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery. The French type is even longer than the British type, but the French type is actually made in France.

Type IX, British Type, aka M98 long, aka Commercial Magnum
Action OAL: 9.150
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.770
Magazine length: 3.640/3.840
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank


Type X, French Type, aka French Magnum, aka Brevex Magnum
Action OAL: 9.240
Recvr screws, center to center: 8.207
Bolt body length: 6.740
Magazine length: 3.900
Recvr ring dia: 1.500, X-large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.141, X-large shank.

Notice that the French magnum is larger in every dimension than the British magnum, but the French bolt is shorter by .030"



Type XI, "True" short action, aka Commercial Kurz
Action OAL: 8.125
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.225
Bolt body length: 5.760
Magazine length: 2.725
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

Excellent info!