Scope Turret Without Clicks

[xswanted]

With all the focus on "tactile" adjustments of a turret on a scope these days has anyone ever experimented with a turret that doesn't click? I know the old leupolds did this but I'm thinking along the lines of today's high end optics.

Back when I was shooting a lot of target archery I used sights that didn't click to adjust up and down and I preferred over the sights that would click.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Why?

 

[xswanted]

Why?

Why not? The dial is labeled, why do we all want a scope that clicks?

I’m sure there are guys out there that count clicks still but if all the sub tensions are marked the “click” is meaningless.

 

[SSL]

In theory at least, one can adjust the scope by feel with the "clicks" rather than having to pull one's head out of position to read the labels. With a FFP scope and hash-marked reticle, it becomes a moot point if marked distances are known.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Why not? The dial is labeled, why do we all want a scope that clicks?

I’m sure there are guys out there that count clicks still but if all the sub tensions are marked the “click” is meaningless.

For one thing, clicks are predictable and repeatable. Ok, that's two things, but I can make a case that they are essentially the same.

One must understand that the amount of displacement we are talking about here is extremely small. On another thread here, I linked to a couple of videos that I made detailing the use of a competition reticle that I designed for a riflescope. This is the third reticle I've designed, and I am always amazed at the small size of the lines and so on with which one must work for this task. And then when you realize that you want to move this reticle in fractions of the lines and marks, you quickly learn to appreciate the knobs with the clicks. You talk about labels on the dial as opposed to clicks on the knobs. To my mind that's like comparing analog (labels) to digital (clicks). I can be so much more precise with clicks, plus I have the labels on the dial with the clicks.

It is much easier to make a smooth knob instead of a high-quality clickable knob, but somehow, I missed the clamor of people who want those instead of clicks. You are actually the first person I have heard ask for that, that I can ever remember. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's indicative of a lack of interest or desire for such a retro feature. I don't see too many people asking for telephones with dials. Such a dial would look funny on my smartphone.

 

[Fred Bohl]

Ease up a bit TT. Awhile back you posted a comment to the effect that you preferred to have the scope erector tube centered to produce the best IQ. Some of us including me agree.

On my heavy gun (about 65 lbs) both barreled actions are equipped with Ivey BR30-50 mounts for just that purpose. I've used them in both SBR and 1000 yard unlimited matches. They have no clicks and can be set to less than one click and returned to zero repeatedly using only the micrometer markings.



"Back in the day" in SBR it was common practice to use a frozen scope with external adjustments of several designs but all with continuous (no-click) adjustments. Even further back there was a wonderful for its time production target scope with continuous external adjustments the Bausch & Lomb BAlvar 24 6-24x (new with mounts $240 in 1961).

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

WWT, FB. Where did you see me go off the rails about using huge adjustment range?

You are absolutely correct in that I preach, yeah verily preach, the use of external devices to get as close as possible to mechanical zero for your use. I'm a big proponent of Burris XTR Signature rings with their plastic inserts and using those in combination with 20MOA ramps to get really close to mechanical 0 for your preferred distance.

In my case, I set up the riflescope on my F-TR rifle with a 20MOA ramp, and some combo of signature ring inserts to get be just above 0 at 1000 yards. The few times that I shoot at 600 yards, I dial down and suffer the indignity of not looking through the sweet spot of my riflescope, longing for the time at which I can get back to the center.

It's good to be able to dial in the exact number of clicks to get back to my beloved 1000 yard zero, however, that sucker moves during the day and also from day to day. It's good to be able to add or subtract a couple of clicks without having to pull out a loupe to make sure to line up the marks on the dial. I like when I add say 1 click to get me in the X-ring instead of the bottom of the 10 ring and still maintain the same sight picture, shot to shot. Then of course, the wind decides to mess with the results.

I should think your nice Ivey mounts are probably better precision than the Leopold no-click knobs. I'm not sure that spending $1000 and adding 2 pounds to my F-TR rifle just for that mount is a wise decision. I'll click the few clicks I need.

 

[Fred Bohl]

While Stephan Ivey no longer makes the pictured set of elevation adjustable BR30-50 mounts, back when I bought them in March 2007, they were $420 per set including shipping and 8oz per set. I have a data card that shows the setting for tested zero at range for each load and seating depth I'm likely to use. I preset to the pretested zero setting and my standard sight pattern, at nominal wind condition fire a sighter and use the offset for hold off on score target.

 

[762plinker]

With all the focus on "tactile" adjustments of a turret on a scope these days has anyone ever experimented with a turret that doesn't click? I know the old leupolds did this but I'm thinking along the lines of today's high end optics.

Back when I was shooting a lot of target archery I used sights that didn't click to adjust up and down and I preferred over the sights that would click.

no way..they are not PRECISE, nor repeatable.
not for precision shooting

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

DEON designed the Genesis riflescope to solve that problem. The optical path is always through the middle and the adjustments are external (but built into the riflescope) and are huge. I love the concept but it's only in FFP. Would not work well for F-class and it's spendy.

 

[xswanted]

no way..they are not PRECISE, nor repeatable.
not for precision shooting

Explain this please.

How does the "click" make a scope repeatable or precise?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Since I brought up those two points originally, I took the liberty to answer this question.

In a well-designed knob with clicks, each time you turn the knob for a click, the reticle will move a very precise amount. That amount will be something like an apparent 1/4 MOA or 1/8MOA or 0.1MIL or 0.05MIL, or the much more esoteric 1/4 IPHY or some such. Each click will signify the same amount every time. The beauty of the click is you do not have to interpret the significance of lining up 2 lines or making sure you have the markings lined up precisely the same way, edge to edge or close to the edge. You do not even have to look at the knobs with clicks, you can just feel each one, count them, and know you have dialed the exact amount that you wanted.

The nobs with the clicks also have the numbers and the lines so you are not giving up anything with the clicks. It's not an either/or situation. If I need to put in 10.5 MOA on my scope, I twirl the knob one revolution, back to the same number, then I add 4 more 1/8 clicks. That is very precise and takes all of 2.27 seconds to do. From position. if I want to go back to where I was, same thing in reverse. I don't have to look closely to make sure I have the markings lined up properly, it's digital.

The touch and feedback of the knobs clicking is what people look for and discuss when they talk about the controls of a riflescope. Do you hear and feel the clicks? Is it too mushy? Is it too hard? Do the knobs turn themselves too easily? Lots of effort has gone into quality knobs with clicks.

In PRS, going from target to target, you need to be able to crank in the correction quickly and positively. Going from 3.7 to 4.2 should not be a pain and should take nothing more than a second and you know you have the proper correction.

In F-class, when the coach says, put in 2.5 MOA right, come down 1/4 MOA and hold 2 rings right, you have to do that very quickly, without moving from your position. Extremely easy and precise to do with great knobs. I don't even want to consider doing that in a Leupold-type no-click knob.

 

[USMCDOC]

For one thing, clicks are predictable and repeatable. Ok, that's two things, but I can make a case that they are essentially the same.

One must understand that the amount of displacement we are talking about here is extremely small. On another thread here, I linked to a couple of videos that I made detailing the use of a competition reticle that I designed for a riflescope. This is the third reticle I've designed, and I am always amazed at the small size of the lines and so on with which one must work for this task. And then when you realize that you want to move this reticle in fractions of the lines and marks, you quickly learn to appreciate the knobs with the clicks. You talk about labels on the dial as opposed to clicks on the knobs. To my mind that's like comparing analog (labels) to digital (clicks). I can be so much more precise with clicks, plus I have the labels on the dial with the clicks.

It is much easier to make a smooth knob instead of a high-quality clickable knob, but somehow, I missed the clamor of people who want those instead of clicks. You are actually the first person I have heard ask for that, that I can ever remember. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's indicative of a lack of interest or desire for such a retro feature. I don't see too many people asking for telephones with dials. Such a dial would look funny on my smartphone.

 

[Sandstorm]

Nice.....I need one of those....well perhaps not...lol
i dont need a scope with no clicks however.

 

[xswanted]

Since I brought up those two points originally, I took the liberty to answer this question.

In a well-designed knob with clicks, each time you turn the knob for a click, the reticle will move a very precise amount. That amount will be something like an apparent 1/4 MOA or 1/8MOA or 0.1MIL or 0.05MIL, or the much more esoteric 1/4 IPHY or some such. Each click will signify the same amount every time. The beauty of the click is you do not have to interpret the significance of lining up 2 lines or making sure you have the markings lined up precisely the same way, edge to edge or close to the edge. You do not even have to look at the knobs with clicks, you can just feel each one, count them, and know you have dialed the exact amount that you wanted.

The nobs with the clicks also have the numbers and the lines so you are not giving up anything with the clicks. It's not an either/or situation. If I need to put in 10.5 MOA on my scope, I twirl the knob one revolution, back to the same number, then I add 4 more 1/8 clicks. That is very precise and takes all of 2.27 seconds to do. From position. if I want to go back to where I was, same thing in reverse. I don't have to look closely to make sure I have the markings lined up properly, it's digital.

The touch and feedback of the knobs clicking is what people look for and discuss when they talk about the controls of a riflescope. Do you hear and feel the clicks? Is it too mushy? Is it too hard? Do the knobs turn themselves too easily? Lots of effort has gone into quality knobs with clicks.

In PRS, going from target to target, you need to be able to crank in the correction quickly and positively. Going from 3.7 to 4.2 should not be a pain and should take nothing more than a second and you know you have the proper correction.

In F-class, when the coach says, put in 2.5 MOA right, come down 1/4 MOA and hold 2 rings right, you have to do that very quickly, without moving from your position. Extremely easy and precise to do with great knobs. I don't even want to consider doing that in a Leupold-type no-click knob.

I can see clicks being beneficial for F class.

For PRS though everyone is looking at the knob. If a guy is going from 3.7 to 4.2 he’s not going to count 5 clicks so in that aspect a knob without clicks wouldn’t be a big deal. At least I wouldn’t be counting. It takes too long. In all honesty I’m holding over to make that correction anyway.

The archery sight I used that had no clicks and was very repeatable. I had it on a bow I used for field archery.

I’d still be interested in trying it. There’s no accuracy advantage to having them, the internals work the same either way.

 

[762plinker]

Explain this please.

How does the "click" make a scope repeatable or precise?

it simple...a click allows for a return to the SAME SPOT every time on a top quality scope.
with no click you are guessing you have the lines at close to the same spot.
pretty simple real world info

 

[xswanted]

it simple...a click allows for a return to the SAME SPOT every time on a top quality scope.
with no click you are guessing you have the lines at close to the same spot.
pretty simple real world info

With an indicator on the scope and lines on the knob I’m not sure how you’d “guess”. It’s pretty straight forward to line to lines up in my opinion, maybe it’s difficult for some if older eyes are used.

The scope will function the same with or without a click. The click doesn’t make the scope more repeatable or precise.

 

[762plinker]

With an indicator on the scope and lines on the knob I’m not sure how you’d “guess”. It’s pretty straight forward to line to lines up in my opinion, maybe it’s difficult for some if older eyes are used.

The scope will function the same with or without a click. The click doesn’t make the scope more repeatable or precise.

keep believing that
there is a reason why top end scopes have clicks.
do you shoot in precision competition like 600 1000 yard benchrest ?
or less precise bang the steel anywhere

 

[xswanted]

keep believing that
there is a reason why top end scopes have clicks.
do you shoot in precision competition like 600 1000 yard benchrest ?
or less precise bang the steel anywhere

The click is a reference for the operator yes. It gives the operator the ability to make sure the scope moves “x” amount of his or her favorite unit of measurement.

What I’m getting at is the scope itself is no more or less “precise” with or without the click. The erector tube moves smoothly it just stops exactly whatever your clicks are referenced in.

If you took one of mine or yours $2000+ optics and removed the “click” then proceeded to turn the knob from 0 to 5 of whatever unit of measurement the scope is in, the erector tube will move the same amount with it without the click of the turret.


One could actually argue a scope without clicks could be more precisely adjusted than one with clicks given you have a fluid turret versus one that will only move in the “x” distance of clicks.

 

[762plinker]

The click is a reference for the operator yes. It gives the operator the ability to make sure the scope moves “x” amount of his or her favorite unit of measurement.

What I’m getting at is the scope itself is no more or less “precise” with or without the click. The erector tube moves smoothly it just stops exactly whatever your clicks are referenced in.

If you took one of mine or yours $2000+ optics and removed the “click” then proceeded to turn the knob from 0 to 5 of whatever unit of measurement the scope is in, the erector tube will move the same amount with it without the click of the turret.


One could actually argue a scope without clicks could be more precisely adjusted than one with clicks given you have a fluid turret versus one that will only move in the “x” distance of clicks.

what you are clearly missing( do not believe) is that manually turning with no clicks is not prcise nor repeatable in a precise movement. it is all human movement hoping for repeatability, while click on a top end scope ARE REPEATABLE, NOT A HOPE NOR A GUESS.
it is your mistaken belief that is the issue not the scopes