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Starting up from scratch. Need advice.

Todd-67

I have been primarily a rimfire shooter as all I had in the past was 100yrd range. A couple of years ago I joined a club that goes out to 300yrs and grabbed my first centerfire bolt gun. Like most I do have AR’s but I don’t shoot them nearly as often as the bolt guns. Paper punching and steel is all I am interested in at this time. I do not hunt.

I have lots of experience loading shotshells in the past and have general idea on what this project will take to get up and operational.

What I am lacking is access to experienced people that have been doing this for a while. I do not mind spending cash on quality equipment. I would rather spend the $$ up front on good equipment than have to re-buy equipment down the road. I know after buying other things and using them for a while I see what works and what doesn't. I am hoping to accelerate the process and prevent buying junk by leaning on others that have experience.

I will start reloading .223. The goal is developing accurate loading for shooting primarily at 300yrds. Eventually if all goes well, I would like to add a 6mm variant. I have Lapua brass that will only be used in reloading/firing in one gun.

Presses:

The basic RCBS Rock Chucker has been replaced by the Supreme that has a slightly different feature set than the original.

RCBS now offers a turret press that looks promising should I want to reload for the AR and am looking for round count and less focused on precision while retaining the ability to operate in single stage mode.

I am not sure if there are better options here or not. The RCBS presses seem to be a solid base to build from.

Dies:

I was looking at the Whidden full length bushing die set but am open to suggestions here. Some say to just neck size when the brass/rifle combination are paired.

Powder measure:

RCBS Chargemaster supreme or some other auto trickle variant. I have not used one of these but the concept seems pretty straight forward.

Annealer:

Still pretty clueless on this part. Some say you need it and some say if you are fire forming brass and restricting it to just one rifle you it’s not 100% needed)

There are a slew of other tools needed (trimmer, hand primer, backup beam scale, tumbler, etc..) but the above items are the larger ticket ones for now. I will be asking a bunch more questions as those parts hit the radar to purchase.
 
Do the turret press. RCBS or Lee. Take off the indexing feature and you have a solid multi station press. I did the Lee 4 hole turret press kit 22yrs ago and haven't found a need to use anything else. Swapping the turrets out for different cartridge reloading is priceless. Set and forget die positions. I do like the Forster Co-AX press design with slide in/out die feature, but for the insane $565 price its not worth it.

Chargemaster 1500 or whatever is available now is the way to go.

Annealing is good, but I wouldn't buy an expensive machine to do it. I anneal with a drill, socket, and butane torch method. Internet forum folks say this isn't possible, but I've seen me do it with great success and consistency.

Dies: I use RCBS, Redding. Forster would be good too.

I'm excited for you! Good luck on your reloading career!
 
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RegionRat said:
I see you live in Ohio. I will suggest you spend some of your effort on finding a mentor. Odds are strong that if there are clubs or ranges, that is a good place to research for a mentor.
Click to expand...
I have a few guy at the club that I can lean on if need be. Overall the process doesn't appear difficult at all for an engineer that has reloaded before. I do appreciate the nuances that only experience can provide.

I should have stated that I have knowledge how to load. The manuals are a given although most information is online and can be had from the manufacturers.

My focus is on equipment at this point.
 
If you go with a single stage press look at the Mec Marksman . Very well built , better access for placing brass in and out and the shellholder floats and creates very concentric loads .
 
AzMandella said:
If you go with a single stage press look at the Mec Marksman . Very well built , better access for placing brass in and out and the shellholder floats and creates very concentric loads .
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought about Mec. I have lots of hours behind their shotshell reloaders and they were solid for that.
 
As Region Rat said find a mentor, or at least find someone that you can sit down with and watch him/her load some of theirs or yours's from start to completion. When i started I was given an oral step by step from a friend that had loaded a lot. He probably thought that it went without saying to lube the cases. IT NEEDED TO BE SAID TO ME!
 
How much ammo are you looking to load?

If you are looking to load for matches and such it may be best to get a dillon progressive.

Let's say you are just loading for a couple bolt actions under thousand rounds per year...

I would get redding t7

Single stage redding big boss ii or mec marksman.

I've used all 3 and they are all good.

Be sure to get inline roller handle for any of them.

Priming either rcbs hand held or 21st century hand held primer.

Dies decide whether you want a bushing die or not. For bushing die redding type s is good.

For seating die do not get forster micrometer seating die. The bullet seating stem is fragile.

Redding micrometer seater has been really good for me.

Rcbs chargemaster has worked fine.

You do not need to anneal. Master the basics and then you can always have someone anneal a batch to see if it works for you.
 
Todd-67 said:
I have a few guy at the club that I can lean on if need be. Overall the process doesn't appear difficult at all for an engineer that has reloaded before. I do appreciate the nuances that only experience can provide.

I should have stated that I have knowledge how to load. The manuals are a given although most information is online and can be had from the manufacturers.

My focus is on equipment at this point.
Click to expand...
Okay then, you are well on your way.

Your view on the press is good. Nothing wrong with RCBS, or any other press for that matter. I have more than one, but I still have my first RockChucker and would rather not admit how long I have run it...

On dies, the Whidden are certainly a higher than entry level, so good choice, however... that comment on neck size only may or may not be universal.

At first, you will need to study the issues of how brass relates to chambers and dies. You mentioned being an engineer, so grab the specs and learn the critical lengths and diameters and learn how to inspect them.

You will want to be able to both full size (which includes bump size) and neck size. You will let a small set of cases have more than one cycle to observe how their shoulder and diameters fully form to the chamber. Once they fully form, you will learn to minimally size (bump) to optimize case life and performance.

There is also the matter of feed reliability in your AR that means a slightly different brass prep recipe than the one for your bolt gun, but you will have a little time to gain the feel for what I am talking about.

Depending on your taste, I would recommend a set of these to control your shoulder bump while being able to close the press down onto the shell holder. This is less technique or press sensitive since it uses a positive stop.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets

Powder measures and automatic powder measures could be another month long discussion. Your observations are okay. At the entry level, the RCBS and Hornady units are fine. There is a step up to get to the AutoTrickler or the SuperTrickler, and another really big step up to the Prometheus.

You would be okay to start out with an RCBS or Hornady unit, and decide later if you want to upgrade or stick with them.

Annealing is a more advanced step. You don't need to anneal right away and could postpone this step while you learn, but soon you may want to add it to your tool set. The three common methods are induction, flame, and salt bath. All three can work, but they are not similar in terms of handling or skill level.

Your 223 cases can go more than 10 cycles without annealing. That is not to say proper annealing doesn't improve your prep when done well, but it is to say it can confuse you if it is done poorly. Brass starts to work harden on every cycle regardless of being in just one gun or not. Neck and shoulder hardness affect performance, so keeping sets of brass organized is important.

An inexpensive flame annealer can be a good way to get your feet wet. The Annealing Made Perfect unit is probably considered the top dog and does a good job, but it isn't cheap and automation is another add on.

Keeping good notes and your brass organized is very important to a good start. Learning to lay out your work space and observing an experienced loader is going to save you lots of grief and keep you safe too.

I will just add that my advice is to create small sets and do more cycles, rather than try to bulk load as a beginner. Good Luck and always play it safe.
 
The default powder measure is a fx120i. Get a V4 AutoTrickler to go with it and be done with that part of the equation.

A turret press is nice if loading more than one cartridge. A T7 is the route I would go although some say the Lee seems to produce ok results.

If you have guns that you are serious about getting the most accuracy from, get semi-custom bushing dies from Harrell’s. Get a quality micrometer seating die and you will be good there.

By an Amp or do not anneal at all. Just keep your cases in the same rotation(number of firings).

Get a 21st century hand primer.
 
RegionRat said:
Okay then, you are well on your way.

Your view on the press is good. Nothing wrong with RCBS, or any other press for that matter. I have more than one, but I still have my first RockChucker and would rather not admit how long I have run it...

On dies, the Whidden are certainly a higher than entry level, so good choice, however... that comment on neck size only may or may not be universal.

At first, you will need to study the issues of how brass relates to chambers and dies. You mentioned being an engineer, so grab the specs and learn the critical lengths and diameters and learn how to inspect them.

You will want to be able to both full size (which includes bump size) and neck size. You will let a small set of cases have more than one cycle to observe how their shoulder and diameters fully form to the chamber. Once they fully form, you will learn to minimally size (bump) to optimize case life and performance.

There is also the matter of feed reliability in your AR that means a slightly different brass prep recipe than the one for your bolt gun, but you will have a little time to gain the feel for what I am talking about.

Depending on your taste, I would recommend a set of these to control your shoulder bump while being able to close the press down onto the shell holder. This is less technique or press sensitive since it uses a positive stop.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets

Powder measures and automatic powder measures could be another month long discussion. Your observations are okay. At the entry level, the RCBS and Hornady units are fine. There is a step up to get to the AutoTrickler or the SuperTrickler, and another really big step up to the Prometheus.

You would be okay to start out with an RCBS or Hornady unit, and decide later if you want to upgrade or stick with them.

Annealing is a more advanced step. You don't need to anneal right away and could postpone this step while you learn, but soon you may want to add it to your tool set. The three common methods are induction, flame, and salt bath. All three can work, but they are not similar in terms of handling or skill level.

Your 223 cases can go more than 10 cycles without annealing. That is not to say proper annealing doesn't improve your prep when done well, but it is to say it can confuse you if it is done poorly. Brass starts to work harden on every cycle regardless of being in just one gun or not. Neck and shoulder hardness affect performance, so keeping sets of brass organized is important.

An inexpensive flame annealer can be a good way to get your feet wet. The Annealing Made Perfect unit is probably considered the top dog and does a good job, but it isn't cheap and automation is another add on.

Keeping good notes and your brass organized is very important to a good start. Learning to lay out your work space and observing an experienced loader is going to save you lots of grief and keep you safe too.

I will just add that my advice is to create small sets and do more cycles, rather than try to bulk load as a beginner. Good Luck and always play it safe.
Click to expand...

Now that is VERY valuable information. Thank you very much for taking the time to type that out.

The comment on the neck sizing only is one reason why I am asking questions on this site. The neck size only comments that I have heard people talk about doesn't sit well with me. This was "local range" advice. I may be wrong on my thinking but full length sizing would assist on keeping the concentricity of the case as well as ensuring all the dimensionals start out the same.

Those Redding shell holders look interesting. I know what you are stating about the shoulder bump and they look like a pretty neat way to get that setup where you want it.

The annealing portion of it as you eloquently explained is one area that left some questions in the back of my head. The work hardening of metals is a thing. I am just ignorant as to how much of a thing it is under these circumstances.

Your converasation also sparked some thoughts on gauging equipment. I am fluent on micrometer, caliper and other general measuring equipment usage. Not to sure on what other gauging is needs vs nice to have. I would always like more data than less on what happens from loaded to fired dimensions and back.
 
@RegionRat has it pretty well nailed down for you. I will make a couple of comments. If you are not loading pistol I would consider the turret press more than necessary. Also if you are limited to 300 yds Lee or RCBS dies are more than adequate. As for neck sizing I have used that method for going on 14 years on 223 and 308, although I currently am full length sizing as a test.

Reading can be a rabbit hole, both for money and time. It is best to buy quality, both in equipment and components. The best reloading equipment in the world won't make quality ammo with crappy or marginal components.
 
Todd-67 said:
I do not mind spending cash on quality equipment. I would rather spend the $$ up front on good equipment than have to re-buy equipment down the road. I know after buying other things and using them for a while I see what works and what doesn't. I am hoping to accelerate the process and prevent buying junk by leaning on others that have experience.
Click to expand...
My reply was based on your statements above. There are certainly some cheap products that will get you by. Lee dies are an example. I don’t think they fit the description of “quality equipment.”

I read a lots. There are world class shooters on this site. I have seen many of them recommend Harrell’s dies. The ones that don’t use Harrell’s generally use full custom dies cut to their own reamer specs.

Most of them seem to use fx120i scales and AutoTricklers. If you don’t want to drop the dime for an fx120i, get a charge master lite.

Many of them use Century 21 primer seaters.

I have not seen what I consider a consensus on presses used.

Many of them anneal with Amp annealers. Some do not anneal at all. My personal experience is that the Amp is more consistent than anything out there and I have tried all types of machines prior to biting the bullet and buying the Amp. The only method I found close in consistency was salt bath annealing.

Purchase a quality seating die and an arbor press-the Century 21 hydro press is nice.

Put a LabRadar on your list.
 
Sounds like your a future Benchrest Shooter????
My Recommendation--For starters--Up grade when and if you need???
Harrells Precision (Web Address)Their quality equipment at reasonable prices for most of your needs---
Arbor Press
Bench press---2 options
Powder measurer---3-4 options
reloading dies

They also have Scope rings , scope bases, tuners

Their equipment will outlast most of us shooters!!!!

Call them--just talking to them is worth the call if you like southern hospitality.

The best advice was stated earlier.
Get a local shooter who you can easily call upon to help with your personal set up!
Be cautious about advice from computer board "EXPERTS".

Advice given to me when I started about buying scopes also applies to buying equipment
"ONLY A RICH MAN CAN AFFORD A CHEAP SCOPE'

CLP
 
Bat Rastard said:
Precision Reloading has the Forster coax on sale right now for $329
Click to expand...
Looks like you are a fellow motorcycle enthusiast. :)

Are there any downsides to that press? Looking at it from a design perspective it appears to be well thought out and overbuilt in a good way.

I like the mechanical advantage that they claim as I have a right wrist injury (shattered and pinned) that would appreciate that during a long session. The only downside that I could imagine with that is loosing a little feel. From my experince with press fits in manufacturing you can tell when things are assembling correctly vs. something being off.

Ccrider said:
I have not seen what I consider a consensus on presses used............


Put a LabRadar on your list........
Click to expand...

I haven't gotten the consensus on presses either but the information provided is still helpful. The ones mentioned seem to all be quality units. The MEC and Foster were two that were not on the radar before this thread.

The chronograph issue is one that I have on the list. I need to get some equipment together first before I step into actually loading and testing. I consider this as verification equipment which is second step in acquisition .

LabRadar was/is on the list. Magnetospeed is another. There are numerous other options available but those two allow setup/use without crossing in front of the firing line. LabRadar has had it's challenges with getting components to fulfill orders with their full featured units. I am not sure if that has gotten better recently or not.
Peterson1 said:
Sounds like your a future Benchrest Shooter????
My Recommendation--For starters--Up grade when and if you need???
Harrells Precision (Web Address)Their quality equipment at reasonable prices for most of your needs---
Arbor Press
Bench press---2 options
Powder measurer---3-4 options
reloading dies

They also have Scope rings , scope bases, tuners

Their equipment will outlast most of us shooters!!!!

Call them--just talking to them is worth the call if you like southern hospitality.

The best advice was stated earlier.
Get a local shooter who you can easily call upon to help with your personal set up!
Be cautious about advice from computer board "EXPERTS".

Advice given to me when I started about buying scopes also applies to buying equipment
"ONLY A RICH MAN CAN AFFORD A CHEAP SCOPE'

CLP
Click to expand...

Harrell's is no doubt well respected equipment. I may be (probably) off base with my opinion on dies but my head is to buy quality mass produced units to start with and upgrade those if/when the need comes up. As mentioned top shooters do order custom setups based on their chamber cuts. Currently I am shooting stock barrel/rifles. When it comes time to building one or re-barreling that may come into play.

I would like to think that I am on the path to being a "bench rest" shooter. I am getting into centerfire rifle late in life. Currently I am working on developing/refining my skill set for personal satisfaction but I competed in sporting clays years ago and loved it so competing would be extremely rewarding but I won't waste mine or anyone else's time unless i am competitive.

There are so called experts everywhere that give bad advice. You are going to run into that locally and on the internet. This is why I am here. I have spent a lot of time on various forums and this place seems to have less BS than the others. The local guys that I have talked to are all over the map with advice. You have a faction that is stuck in the past and you have the bulk blasters that are trying to save money producing mass quantities per session. I have zero illusions about reloading saving money.

Doom said:
@RegionRat has it pretty well nailed down for you. I will make a couple of comments. If you are not loading pistol I would consider the turret press more than necessary. Also if you are limited to 300 yds Lee or RCBS dies are more than adequate. As for neck sizing I have used that method for going on 14 years on 223 and 308, although I currently am full length sizing as a test.

Reading can be a rabbit hole, both for money and time. It is best to buy quality, both in equipment and components. The best reloading equipment in the world won't make quality ammo with crappy or marginal components.
Click to expand...

The entire game of precision shooting is a rabbit hole/money soak in both rifles and ancillaries. It's sort of related to racing. It takes a modest amount of money to improve performance but it takes a substantial investment/knowledge to be fast.

What i have learned from chasing small groups in rimfire is that the next rifle I buy is going straight the Lapua testing center and a large purchase of ammo will follow. It's really not all that more expensive in the long run when considering all the time and money trying to find the right combo by trial and error. I wouldn't trade the knowledge learned by doing it on my own but being confined to using mass produced ammo I would rather spend the time shooting than testing.

A huge thank you to all that have replied. The information is extremely helpful.

-Todd
 
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