• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

gunsandgunsmithing said:
In short range, unless someone breaks, you're a solid dead last place with a .5-1moa rifle and tune. You can tell what the tuner does to group shapes with less distance and wind between you and the target. It just extrapolates with yardage. I do virtually all tuner testing at 100 yards with cf rifles...some 200. Ive done enough long range testing to see that the results just extrapolate and that wind mainly, just becomes a bigger factor in it. Shortening the distance just shortens the time to see what the tuner does to the group shapes...repeatably. Most guns are either in or very, very close when moved out to longer range in the same conditions.
Click to expand...

That is my point. The results we see all the time in both SR and LRBR are well within what many consider statistically insignificant when they do their tests. The tests often shoot so many rounds without keeping up with the load as the barrel changes, that all rifles become .5 to 1 MOA guns.

I have seen the opposite as you concerning short range testing working for long range.

I will sometimes do initial testing for a 30 cal at 385 yds and test for a 6mm at 300. All I am looking for is powder nodes. I will then test both the low and high nodes at 1000 yds. Most of the time the low node shoots best at distances out to 600, but the high nodes shoots tighter at 1000.

Maybe tuner tweaking is different.

Regardless, I am constantly amazed at how many simply will not consider the results we get in BR.
 
If I have done something and it works, why would I require verification from another source, as long as it continues to work? (I think that this is true whether or not you shoot tuners.) I am sorry to say that no one who has the book has described the test conditions, particularly with regard to wind flags, distances, and how tuning was done. Someone asked it one could reliably set a tuner based only on a weather report. As far as I am aware, you cannot, but you certainly can get close enough to abbreviate the adjustment process. I am told that Mr. Boyer starts an agg. with more than one set of loads, complete, allowing for sighters and record. With all of his experience he does not take a chance and simply refer to his notes....yet many seem to do just that. My question for them is do you really think that you know more about short range group benchrest than he does? The freaking powder burn rate changes due to the temperature and humidity it is exposed to. Determining if it has changed, or how much if it has would be very difficult to accurately measure.
 
so my opinion on tuners is no more important than anyone else's so I'll refrain from giving it, however I can attest to experience with a system used at a club I belonged to some years ago; we had a 50 meter baffled and walled (to mitigate wind) smallbore range with an immovable concrete bench to which a rifle was rigidly fixtured, a motorized paper tape (from an adding machine) was used as a target, after firing several baseline groups, two steel collars were attached to the muzzle end of the barrel that were "inchwormed" with a feeler gauge (I believe in .005 increments) firing groups at each setting, the system clearly did show a small difference in groups size as well as slight shift in group location, a "sine wave" where the group would open up then close did appear at points in the adjustment range, the tests were conducted with a rifle/ammo combination that shot well to begin with, numerous rifles were tested on the fixture with similar results.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I agree except that for a long time, it was reported by many that we should do load development before adding the tuner. Fact is, it works either way because tune just repeats with frequency. Adding a mass on the end of the bbl lowers the frequency and slightly widens the node width, but it does still repeat. IME, the tuner works just as well either way but I do prefer to do load work up with it on, for the same reason you allude to. Just don't touch it while doing the initial load work up.
Click to expand...
My opinion is based on this, correct me if I am wrong. Develope a load .Groups in the zeros and ones. Now hang a tuner on it. Is it still shoot the same groups. I doubt it, but I never did it that way. Yes, now you can find the sweet spot you developed, perhaps improve it, but a lot of extra shooting going on I think. Maybe? I put that in because of what you said about many have said put the tuner on after development.. I don't see that as being correct, just more wasted rounds down the tube.
 
INTJ said:
That is my point. The results we see all the time in both SR and LRBR are well within what many consider statistically insignificant when they do their tests. The tests often shoot so many rounds without keeping up with the load as the barrel changes, that all rifles become .5 to 1 MOA guns.

I have seen the opposite as you concerning short range testing working for long range.

I will sometimes do initial testing for a 30 cal at 385 yds and test for a 6mm at 300. All I am looking for is powder nodes. I will then test both the low and high nodes at 1000 yds. Most of the time the low node shoots best at distances out to 600, but the high nodes shoots tighter at 1000.

Maybe tuner tweaking is different.

Regardless, I am constantly amazed at how many simply will not consider the results we get in BR.
Click to expand...
Powder tuning IS different than with a tuner, especially at long range. A tuner can't compensate entirely for velocity plateaus, although there is evidence that they might help. But that gets into deeper and muddier water...positive compensation.

The reason moving a tuner just extrapolates is that tuners change, for all intents and purposes, a constant. That being the bbls phase time relative to frequency. We are simply timing bullet exit, ideally, to the top of a sine wave..in simple terms. That doesn't change with distance.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
That does happen in a competitive game, frequently. The offer stands. Not sure how far "over yonder" is from here but I'd be happy to show you my process and it's hard not to see what tuners can do. Even Brian's test confirms it by saying they can take a gun out of tune. Well, the obvious response is...if they can take one out, why can he not bring it back into tune during his test or did he just omit that part from either his test or from his conclusion report. Hmmm.
Again, you can tune a rifle by load. I've never said otherwise.
Click to expand...
Again take you sir, I’m not discrediting your words my days of World championships and out of state match is over now I only shoot local mostly unsanctioned Matches that it’s more important on whats for lunch than who won and my enjoyment is doing more with less and I pride my self on having the ugliest gun on the line And all I got todo is beat one pretty gun and my day is made , good luck with your sales and maybe you can post some pictures of people winner major matches using your “ tuner “
 
JEFFPPC said:
My opinion is based on this, correct me if I am wrong. Develope a load .Groups in the zeros and ones. Now hang a tuner on it. Is it still shoot the same groups. I doubt it, but I never did it that way. Yes, now you can find the sweet spot you developed, perhaps improve it, but a lot of extra shooting going on I think. Maybe? I put that in because of what you said about many have said put the tuner on after development.. I don't see that as being correct, just more wasted rounds down the tube.
Click to expand...
I think I agree. Lol! Very likely, it is NOT in perfect tune when you add the tuner but it's remarkably close, typically no more than 4-5 marks of MY tuner. Different tuner designs will have some affect on the distance between in to out of tune but not as drastically as it might seem. You can't just double the weight and say that you move the tuner half as far, for example.
 
Brx6 said:
Again take you sir, I’m not discrediting your words my days of World championships and out of state match is over now I only shoot local mostly unsanctioned Matches that it’s more important on whats for lunch than who won and my enjoyment is doing more with less and I pride my self on having the ugliest gun on the line And all I got todo is beat one pretty gun and my day is made , good luck with your sales and maybe you can post some pictures of people winner major matches using your “ tuner “
Click to expand...
Pretty is...a winning rifle! My site needs to be updated but there are several things noted on my site under "records and achievements."
Sure, I make and sell tuners so of course I want to do well at it, but it's unfair to blast tuners in general, that I suspect you have little or no experience with...be offered firsthand tutorials and then bring up sales as a motive for my comments. All tuners work on the same principle. Yes, there are aspects of different ones that I like better than others but this isn't about which one to buy. It's about tuners in general being discredited by a respected person in the industry with a procedure and stated goal that leaves a lot on the table.

Truthfully, unless you show up here to find out more about them, I never expected to sell you a tuner, in the first place. That's just the truth, but I'm still more than happy to help where I can. The very best way for that to happen is in person. Your approach here has been to attack a product with no experience based on something you read. I get that he is respected. That's why I'm surprised at his article at all. I think it is well beneath most of his work.
 
Tuners work without question. If a shooter does not believe one will work for them then they should not purchase one. Personally, I have proved to myself my tuners work. Seeing is believing in my case. I don't care how much one claims to know or what kind of test he has done, he will NOT convince me that what I've seen and experienced is not fact. Litz can go sell his book down the street somewhere.
 
Brx6 said:
Again take you sir, I’m not discrediting your words my days of World championships and out of state match is over now I only shoot local mostly unsanctioned Matches that it’s more important on whats for lunch than who won and my enjoyment is doing more with less and I pride my self on having the ugliest gun on the line And all I got todo is beat one pretty gun and my day is made , good luck with your sales and maybe you can post some pictures of people winner major matches using your “ tuner “
Click to expand...
Why are you so angry at using a tuner? Do you know who @gunsandgunsmithing is? The list of people winning matches using his tuner is long and distinguished i can assure you
 
Thanks for all of your contributions guys.

I remember Bryan posting something on Facebook a while ago and after reading it I felt he had already made up his mind about tuners before this test or speaking to people who are very experienced with them.

Looking at his test criteria and the fact he didnt have anyone there who might be considered an expert to oversee things suggested to me he wasnt looking for a positive outcome.
 
Curious said:
Thanks for all of your contributions guys.

I remember Bryan posting something on Facebook a while ago and after reading it I felt he had already made up his mind about tuners before this test or speaking to people who are very experienced with them.

Looking at his test criteria and the fact he didnt have anyone there who might be considered an expert to oversee things suggested to me he wasnt looking for a positive outcome.
Click to expand...
Hmmm.

Overall, I wish he had contacted me about this before doing his testing but there is a side of me that's glad he didn't include me or my tuners in his report. It just is what it is.:)
Rather than capitalize on that, I still say, all tuners work on the same principle and most or all, well designed tuners, do work. The key has always been how to make them work...not if they do.
 
Last edited:
gme said:
so my opinion on tuners is no more important than anyone else's so I'll refrain from giving it, however I can attest to experience with a system used at a club I belonged to some years ago; we had a 50 meter baffled and walled (to mitigate wind) smallbore range with an immovable concrete bench to which a rifle was rigidly fixtured, a motorized paper tape (from an adding machine) was used as a target, after firing several baseline groups, two steel collars were attached to the muzzle end of the barrel that were "inchwormed" with a feeler gauge (I believe in .005 increments) firing groups at each setting, the system clearly did show a small difference in groups size as well as slight shift in group location, a "sine wave" where the group would open up then close did appear at points in the adjustment range, the tests were conducted with a rifle/ammo combination that shot well to begin with, numerous rifles were tested on the fixture with similar results.
Click to expand...
Ta da!
 
Brx6 said:
Again take you sir, I’m not discrediting your words my days of World championships and out of state match is over now I only shoot local mostly unsanctioned Matches that it’s more important on whats for lunch than who won and my enjoyment is doing more with less and I pride my self on having the ugliest gun on the line And all I got todo is beat one pretty gun and my day is made , good luck with your sales and maybe you can post some pictures of people winner major matches using your “ tuner “
Click to expand...
Bart Sauter shot the current IBS 600 yard HG world record shooting one of his tuners. Five shots .311 at 600 yards.
 
BoydAllen said:
From anyone who read his account, what was the test setup Bryan used? IMO the issue is not whether tuners work, but what they do. Several people who have actual verifiable records as successful benchrest shooters have said that tuners broaden tune nodes. IMO that alone is worth the price. Speaking of tuners used in short range group competition, for a long time the advice about how to adjust one was simply incorrect, pbased on more recently acquired knowledge people were moving them way too far, or at least were being told to. Tuners create an additional tuning variable. For some that is the problem because they cannot resist the temptation to move them when they should not. Gene Buckys said that after he had found the best node without a tuner, he would mount his tuner on the barrel, adjust it by additional tuning and then leave it alone, tuning with conventional methods to make adjustments for ambient conditions.
Click to expand...

That was a snubber, not a tuner he used. .the assumption is that it increases the tune node without adjusting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Classified Ads

Forum statistics

Threads
165,470
Messages
2,196,641
Members
78,936
Latest member
Mitch.Holmes

Share This Page

Back
Top