Does annealing change neck tension a lot?

[DngBat7]

How does annealing affect neck tension? If I amp anneal .262 6ppc brass, and I normally have about .004 tension for n133. Am I actually not getting .004 (as in actual seating force) if I am saying this right. I know the actual tension number but annealing is softening the brass? I pre apologize if this is a stupid question. My mind was wondering.

 

[Straightshooter1]

How does annealing affect neck tension? If I amp anneal .262 6ppc brass, and I normally have about .004 tension for n133. Am I actually not getting .004 (as in actual seating force) if I am saying this right. I know the actual tension number but annealing is softening the brass? I pre apologize if this is a stupid question. My mind was wondering.

Yes, the annealing process is to basically soften the brass. The term "neck tension" as it's commonly use in the reloading world is really a misnomer when referring to the amount of grip on the bullet in terms of inches. So, having .004 "neck tension" for cases that have been working hardened over a number of firings is going to have a lot more grip on the bullet than .004 "neck tension" for cases that have been annealed properly. For the difference in cases like this, you can certainly feel that difference when seating a bullet. One of the main benefits of annealing properly is in easier seating of the bullet and getting more consistent seating depths. If one "over anneals" where the brass is actually fully anneal, the brass will be too soft and won't hold the bullet well.

 

[mikecr]

Tension, or bullet gripping 'force', could not be measured in 'inches'.
All you're describing in inches is cal interference.
Likewise, seating force is not tension either, but merely a force needed to overcome friction.
There is currently nothing marketed with which we can measure neck tension.

If your AMP is set correctly, it should not be softening necks, but instead removing any work hardening added to the alloy. It should not be a full anneal, or anything like that. Just a proper process anneal.

What matters most, always, is repeating conditions within your PLAN, which should be what you load developed with. So if you load developed with 4thou interference from AMP annealed necks, and you're happy with result, you should keep doing exactly that.

 

[DngBat7]

Tension, or bullet gripping 'force', could not be measured in 'inches'.
All you're describing in inches is cal interference.
Likewise, seating force is not tension either, but merely a force needed to overcome friction.
There is currently nothing marketed with which we can measure neck tension.

I understand. I did not know how to put this in words in my above question. People refer to 2 thou neck tension in moving .002 down in bushing size. But I do understand what your saying. Thank you for answering. I do anneal on an amp so it should be done properly. Would not trust myself to be as consistent using another method

 

[JMayo]

Annealing doesn't change the neck tension.
It makes it consistent.

 

[DngBat7]

Annealing doesn't change the neck tension.
It makes it consistent.

Thanks. And Congrats on your win this past week

 

[JFrank]

Thanks. And Congrats on your win this past week

Ditto @JMayo

 

[markm87]

Man. I feel like it changes neck tension as well as yielding consistency. I started annealing because years back .308 ammo would have inconsistent neck tension... some of which was VERY heavy. For whatever reason, the same brass appeared to have hard/heavy tension necks sporadically.

Annealing got rid of the hard to seat bullets.

 

[JimSC]

try this, take 2 pieces of brass with the same number of firings. Anneal one of them, do not anneal the other. Measure the outside diameter of the necks in several places. Seat a bullet in each, then pull them with either a kinetic or collet bullet puller. Remeasure the necks, that will show you what effect the annealing had

a good article on this is on Bison Ballistics https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

 

[6.5 forever]

Annealing doesn't change the neck tension.
It makes it consistent.

This all day long!

 

[mikecr]

Annealing doesn't change the neck tension.
It makes it consistent.

It's hard to make a broad statement -that passes all tests.
And this one actually doesn't.

From baseline, work hardened brass can provide more spring back force, which is what tension is.
Process annealed at ~850degF removes that extra force.
Fully annealed at ~1250degF removes even baseline force (killing it).
Move from one level to another and you change neck tension.

Consistency can be managed at any level.
It might be in your plan to process anneal every cycle, or 3rd, or 10th, or 50th, with difficulty/ease in this tied to your sizing plan. What matters of course is that you follow the plan that your load likes.
And you won't know this unless you test it (no assumptions).

 

[Webster]

Tension, or bullet gripping 'force', could not be measured in 'inches'.
All you're describing in inches is cal interference.
Likewise, seating force is not tension either, but merely a force needed to overcome friction.
There is currently nothing marketed with which we can measure neck tension.

If your AMP is set correctly, it should not be softening necks, but instead removing any work hardening added to the alloy. It should not be a full anneal, or anything like that. Just a proper process anneal.

What matters most, always, is repeating conditions within your PLAN, which should be what you load developed with. So if you load developed with 4thou interference from AMP annealed necks, and you're happy with result, you should keep doing exactly that.

Best post I have read in a long time. I lot of people mention full anneal, I don't think they realize how soft a full anneal is. You should never be close to full anneal with any reasonable annealing method. It's almost impossible to soften the case head with neck/shoulder annealing. Some guys still put the heads in water.

 

[JFrank]

How does annealing affect neck tension? If I amp anneal .262 6ppc brass, and I normally have about .004 tension for n133. Am I actually not getting .004 (as in actual seating force) if I am saying this right. I know the actual tension number but annealing is softening the brass? I pre apologize if this is a stupid question. My mind was wondering.

Can’t speak for the ppc but my br likes plenty of hold, Tough to do that with annealed brass.

 

[JASmith]

One way to improve tension consistency post anneal is to neck size the case.

The rate hardening slows down as the metal gets worked. That means the softest necks will be closer in hardness to the ones that did not soften as much.

 

[Bc'z]

Can’t speak for the ppc but my br likes plenty of hold, Tough to do that with annealed brass.

I have to disagree with you on this, we may have had this conversation once or twice.
You know I anneal after every hit, during my tuning procedures I test various bushings as part of my process. While developing a load for my Creedmoor running 123gr bullets and IMR4166 I found a .286 bushing cut my groups in half from the .288 bushing I started load development with.
So if annealed brass doesn't give you better hold then why would the smaller bushing give me smaller groups??
Another point to ponder that got me to start annealing..
After sizing brass 1 day and finishing my prep I charged a case and went to seat a bullet, I literally was able to push the bullet into the case with just my fingers. My thoughts were work hardened brass with to much spring back.
After decapping live primers I ran the drill and torch method before resizing. Bullet hold returned to normal.
Just saying brother...
Call me in the morning we can discuss it more.

 

[JFrank]

Bolder dash !!!!!!!!
how can that be possible ?
I call total BS… Actually I have some brass that’s getting a fair amount of history I’ve set aside for a bit of experimenting this winter, although I need to decide on an small annealing machine. I’m not that interested in the torch and socket method. ( not scientific enough)

 

[rsbhunter]

I'm not even close to being a metallurgy expert, but I DO know that my seating pressure is 80% more consistent since I've been induction annealing...... The base to ogive #'s are always +/- .001 and neck bump is within .0005. Before, seating could vary +/-.003 and bump .002. Not saying to drink the coolaid, but it has honestly improved my scores to where I place 1st thru 3rd consistently..... Seeing is believing... rsbhunter

 

[PopCharlie]

I've been annealing with an Amp for a few years now. One thing I've learned is to think of seating force in terms of yield. How much force is required to overcome the interference of the brass. You hit the threshold, the brass yields. For my 6br with necks turned to .009 (.266 neck chamber), annealing after every firing, I get very consistent seating yield. 21 to 25 lbs of "force", measured by a K&M force pack at the point where I feel the brass yield. I use a K&M arbor press an Wilson in line seating die.
I use a .259 bushing and a .241 mandrel. It gives me .2405 inside neck diameter, or .0025 "tension".

PopCharlie