.30-06 Ackley -- Thoughts?

[Infrequent Shooter]

I built one for a moose hunt with my dad one time. He got a moose at 200+ yds with no problem. We either used 200 or 220gr bullets. Its not one of the gamechanging ackleys like the 22-250ai but it works very well

This caught my eye. I have a 22-250 ai, have not fired it yet. older, but real nice put together rifle. pls tell me about the upgrade over the 22-250

 

[Dusty Stevens]

This caught my eye. I have a 22-250 ai, have not fired it yet. older, but real nice put together rifle. pls tell me about the upgrade over the 22-250

Its a very good upgrade.

 

[lotech]

Of the wildcat and improved cartridges I've worked with, the only one that showed a significant velocity advantage was the .250 Ackley Improved (40 degree shoulder). However, like most improved cartridges and wildcats, the loads I used were not pressure tested, so I'm only assuming that pressures were safe, and I didn't load as hot as some data suggested. Case life was good and there were never any loose primer pockets, but these aren't foolproof methods of determining safe loads and pressures that are within the normal range.

Improved and wildcat cartridges are often a lot of trouble, usually of dubious practical worth over a commercial cartridge, and dies are expensive dies, but... if you're an experimentally inclined handloader and enjoy load development, they can be a lot of fun, at least for a while. And it's not so boring when you use a .30-06 Improved instead of a regular .30-06 to shoot an elk with. A very minor point: you seldom have trim a sharp-shouldered wildcat or improved case as opposed to a regular commercial bottleneck rifle cartridge.

 

[darkangel_r2]

I don't think the AI in the 06 really accomplishes much improvement on game performance. Want improvement? Get a .308 Norma Mag, 300 WM, etc., etc.

The largest gains with improved cases typically come when the parent case has compressed charges with the best powders with the heavy for caliber pills. So looking at 30-06 with a 208 in hodgdons load data it tops out at a 58 grain compressed charge with regular h4831. Using the short cut version and the AI chamber with a long throat that allows 3.45"ish coal may allow that number to be increased to north of 60 and be uncompressed when it hits pressure. This would yield a significant increase in velocity and generally improve the performance of the round in almost every respect with the exception of feeding and extracting.

I agree that the difference on game would be minimal. I don't think any AI cartridge is necessarily better in a hunting application due to potential feeding and extraction issues. Now the long 30-06 family cases feed better than most so they represent a special case where AI versions still probably feed pretty well. But for target applications they can be exceptional.

 

[ImBIllT]

I expected very little improvement over the standard, but am getting 2975fps with 190VLDs over an Ohler 35p. I never shot that barrel before I turned it into an AI. It could simply be a fast barrel. It substantially beats my standard 06 barrel.

 

[wboggs]

I expected very little improvement over the standard, but am getting 2975fps with 190VLDs over an Ohler 35p. I never shot that barrel before I turned it into an AI. It could simply be a fast barrel. It substantially beats my standard 06 barrel.

How about some details? Powder, brass, throat, barrel length, compressed, and oal of loaded round.
Thanks

 

[ImBIllT]

How about some details? Powder, brass, throat, barrel length, compressed, and oal of loaded round.
Thanks

I don’t tend to give exact load data over the web.

Norma 7x64 brass. Loaded to a slight ejector mark, then backed off. I’m confident that Lapua brass would have allowed a slightly higher pressure.

Bullets WS2 coated. Take that for what you will.

I don’t have a print on the reamer, but the throat is substantially longer than a SAAMI ‘06. Perhaps that’s part of the velocity gain.

COAL is written down somewhere, but I’m not at home right now.

I tried RL-23, and N560 and got neither to get up to pressure signs or produce good groups and good SD/ES. The load I’m using is IMR-4350. Not compressed, but very near 100% capacity. The load is slightly under published 300H&H loads with IMR-4350. I suspect a slightly slower powder would yeild higher velocity. Maybe N-555?

Although I think I said the barrel was 26” in a different post, it’s 24”. I hadn’t planned to build it, but had picked up the reamer and dies FOR A SONG, and my dad had an unfired factory Remington stainless take-off barrel with bad threads laying around, and I wanted a back-up gun for an elk hunt, so we put it together. Neither of us had a standard ‘06 reamer, or I probably would not have gone with the AI under the circumstances.

I was so pleased with it that it took three mule deer last year, and I plan to carry it, instead of the 280AI, on my elk hunt this year.

 

[wboggs]

Thanks for the info and I can appreciate you not stating a load. That is not what I was looking for. The overall length would be helpful. Thanks again.

 

[ImBIllT]

Thanks for the info and I can appreciate you not stating a load. That is not what I was looking for. The overall length would be helpful. Thanks again.

I’ll measure when I get home. It’s long. I removed the plastic insert from the front of my Accurate mags. I hit the throat during load development, but it’s not currently jammed. As such, the throat is probably substantially longer than a SAAMI 30-06. That said, I believe the reamer to be standard for a PT&G 30-06AI reamer.

 

[Bc'z]

I’ll measure when I get home. It’s long. I removed the plastic insert from the front of my Accurate mags. I hit the throat during load development, but it’s not currently jammed. As such, the throat is probably substantially longer than a SAAMI 30-06. That said, I believe the reamer to be standard for a PT&G 30-06AI reamer.

Your running 125fps faster with a bullet thats 5gr heavier.
My 06' has been throated .160 to accommodate 200gr bullets, I believe its on the Seringettie reamer.
I thought about going improved and opted to go standard after talking with a few different guys about it, and I didn't have to get new dies.

 

[p-man]

There is no standard OAL listed in most published reloading manuals because 99% of the standard cartridges today are SAAMI registered. So most who choose to chamber an Ackley Improved - the Nosler 280 notwithstanding - consider the parent case max OAL as the MINIMUM acceptable and let the magazine dictate the length limit/maximum; that's why AI cartridges tend to have deep throats. Having said that, I let someone talk me out of a 30-06 WIN M70 SS classic that we had rechambered to AI. Long throated, it gave me quite an improvement on usable powder capacity compared to the standard 06 without pushing pressures; another plus was case life. A major regret was my stupidity in letting that rifle go

 

[jackieschmidt]

Why would a 30/06 AI be any different than doing the AI on any other case.?
people rave about the 280 AI like it is a 7mm REM Mag in a standard bolt face.most are throated to use the longer, heavier high BC bullets and newer powders that are now available.

Why would an ‘06 be any different.

I can see the difference with a case that normally has a fairly steep taper, such as the 22-250. Doing the AI does increase the capacity by a higher proportion.

But that aside, a 30/06 AI should show the same percentage of improvement as any other AI conversion.

Shouldn’t it?

 

[Bc'z]

Why would a 30/06 AI be any different than doing the AI on any other case.?
people rave about the 280 AI like it is a 7mm REM Mag in a standard bolt face.most are throated to use the longer, heavier high BC bullets and newer powders that are now available.

Why would an ‘06 be any different.

I can see the difference with a case that normally has a fairly steep taper, such as the 22-250. Doing the AI does increase the capacity by a higher proportion.

But that aside, a 30/06 AI should show the same percentage of improvement as any other AI conversion.

Shouldn’t it?

Jackie from the conversations I had with various people the gains in a 06'ai aren't that significant to the standard cartridge, there is a little gain, but not so much an animal could tell the difference IMHO.

Then again there's the cool factor by having an improved cartridge.

I have run 200's at over 2900 in my rifle, but my brass wasn't happy about it. Lol

 

[Mulligan]

I hunt with an ‘06AI, I use 180AB’s and am driving them around 2995 fps.
Prior to the AI barrel, 2813fps was normal. So a 200 fps increase for me and the way I load, nothing spicy, just accurate and repeatable. All my hunting loads are very close to published loads by the big bullet companies.

CW

 

[Will Henry]

The 30/06 AI doesn't gain a lot simply because the case capacity is not increased by a lot. The truth is, most AI cartridges show gains mostly because they are loaded HOT. Especially in comparison to the parent cartridge factory loads.
The biggest improvement in ballistics occurs when the capacity is increased enough to allow higher pressures to be hit using a slower powder. The capacity of the 30/06 is just about perfect for 4350, with 180 grain bullets, and is perfect for 4831sc with 200's or 208's. Consequently, the slight increase in capacity doesn't do a lot.
As I said, the big increases always come with increased pressures.
I have worked a bit with the 303 British and it's improved version, the 303 Epps. The Epps version increases powder capacity by a significant amount; taking it from about the same as a 308 to just shy of a 30/06. If I load the standard 303 to the same pressure (these are in P14 actions , by the way and using 30 caliber barrels) I can reach 2700 fps with 180's. With the Epps version, I can hit 2800+. Both loads are pretty hot as are loads which do the same in the 308 and 30/06. The big difference is that the standard 303 can't reach these levels with 4350 because you can't get enough into it. The Epps can and benefits from the ability to use the slower powder.
I have a hunting rifle in 30-303 Epps (built on a Ruger No.1) and one in 30/06 (built on a Mauser 98). It's no surprise, to me, that they both perform exactly the same in the field.
Over the years, I have chambered various rifles for the '06 AI and the 30 Gibbs, for guys who hoped to achieve 300 mag performance with a smaller case; like Ackley and Gibbs said you could. Always, the conclusion was, if you wanted a 300 Mag, it was best to build a 300 Mag! WH

 

[ImBIllT]

Thanks for the info and I can appreciate you not stating a load. That is not what I was looking for. The overall length would be helpful. Thanks again.

3.435”

 

[ImBIllT]

Why would a 30/06 AI be any different than doing the AI on any other case.?
people rave about the 280 AI like it is a 7mm REM Mag in a standard bolt face.most are throated to use the longer, heavier high BC bullets and newer powders that are now available.

Why would an ‘06 be any different.

I can see the difference with a case that normally has a fairly steep taper, such as the 22-250. Doing the AI does increase the capacity by a higher proportion.

But that aside, a 30/06 AI should show the same percentage of improvement as any other AI conversion.

Shouldn’t it?

I think that if I’d applied your logic, that I would have built a 30-06AI sooner. I had heard people claim lackluster results, and since the 30-06 doesn’t have as much body taper as the 22-250 and the Mauser based cartridges, I assumed it didn’t stand to gain much. That said, I had missed a few important things. First, being so long, it still gains a fair bit of capacity. Second, the 280AI offers a reasonable bit of performance over a 280Rem, so would a similar 30cal not offer an equal or greater increase?

 

[nakneker]

The 30-06AI and the 338-06AI don’t give you tremendous gains in velocity. The reason I like them and own them both is with Lapua brass it’s amazing how many firings you can get out of them. I don’t load on the edge of pressure but I’m still running both of those plenty stout. Longevity for your brass and very little casing trimming. I still keep a standard 30-06 and 338 WM in a Ruger #1A in the arsenal but I do like AI versions.

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

Some AI designs were more for brass stretch control than velocity increase. When you only have a a few grains more of powder added, you are not going to get much velocity increase if the pressures remain same.

 

[Will Henry]

Another fallacy is that the sharp shoulder prevents the case lengthening on firing. Unless there is a headspace issue or the action is one which allows some stretch, cases don't lengthen from firing. Cases do lengthen from resizing and the amount of lengthening is related to the amount of sizing (chamber vs die dimensions). A sharp shoulder and a die which minimizes the amount of diameter reduction will reduce the amount of lengthening from sizing. I have done quite a bit of experimentation on this and the results are usually pretty predictable.
A 30/06 I tested lengthened the brass by .003" after thirteen shots (same case, no sizing) using 57 grains of 4350 behind a 180. The same rifle lengthened about .0005or so, per firing, if the case was neck sized only and about .004" if FL sized, without setting the shoulder back.
A Lee Enfield is a little stretchy. Loading the same case over and over with no sizing produced head separation after five or six shots. After rechambering to the Epps, I must have gotten a very slick surface in the chamber because the case didn't separate but the shoulder moved forward with each firing until I could no longer close the bolt. By the way, the Lee Enfield stretch allows the bolt to be closed even when there is over .010 of negative clearance. Try that with a Remington 700! WH