Neck wall thickness vs neck tension

[rjtfroggy]

In Short Range BENCHREST, where we often load after every group or target, annealing simply is not practical.

So the vast majority never do it. I have never annealed a 6PPC case.

I once had a friend use his AMP machine to anneal all 100 of the 30BR cases I was using at that time. I had to fire every one of them before they returned to their former accuracy potential. My best friend had the exact same experience.

Of course, we do not tune for SD or ES. We tune strictly fo agging capability at 100/200 yards.

Jackie up here in the north east the score shooters show up pre loaded. In the 9 years I've been shooting only 1 maybe 2 shooters have loaded at the match.
It probably runs 50/50 as to annealing, I personally do not.

 

[AlNyhus]

I once had a friend use his AMP machine to anneal all 100 of the 30BR cases I was using at that time. I had to fire every one of them before they returned to their former accuracy potential. My best friend had the exact same experience.

Of course, we do not tune for SD or ES. We tune strictly fo agging capability at 100/200 yards.

Jackie, your experience with 'annealed' case necks/shoulders needing to be whapped once to settle down to a competitive level after 'annealing' isn't uncommon.

I have a routine for treating the 30BR's neck/shoulder area that I've used for years to keep the neck tension consistent. I initially used this process on our 308-.165 shortened Lapua cases for our 30 WareWolf Hunter Bench Rest guns and it really worked well. I carried it over to the 30BR's and also to the .085 neck length 30 WolfPup Hunter Bench Rest chambering.

Done this way, they are competitive right away....there's never an accuracy change after they've been treated. These 3 shot groups from my 30BR (testing my new bullets) were shot with new brass that had been treated as part of the forming process. This was the first firing on the brass:

Good shootin' -Al

 

[markm87]

NOOOOO….not tumbling with SS pins. This is hurting your accuracy. Trust me.

Seriously?

I remember a fight going on HERE years ago about the pins peening the case mouths. It was quite the disagreement.

 

[Bill Norris]

In Short Range BENCHREST, where we often load after every group or target, annealing simply is not practical.

So the vast majority never do it. I have never annealed a 6PPC case.

I once had a friend use his AMP machine to anneal all 100 of the 30BR cases I was using at that time. I had to fire every one of them before they returned to their former accuracy potential. My best friend had the exact same experience.

Of course, we do not tune for SD or ES. We tune strictly fo agging capability at 100/200 yards.

I do not anneal at all. It's difficult to rely on S D and E S readings when you shoot five shots in the same hole with E S over 100 fps and on the other hand shoot 5 shots with an open group with E S hardly registering.

 

[Dave M.]

You and your anti - mandrel fettish.... what did mandrels ever do to you?

Lol. Not really sure but they definitely didn’t help my groups. I only use mandrels now when I’m turning new brass. Other than that, they gather dust on my shelf.
Dave

 

[Dave M.]

I do not anneal at all. It's difficult to rely on S D and E S readings when you shoot five shots in the same hole with E S over 100 fps and on the other hand shoot 5 shots with an open group with E S hardly registering.

So true, I just got home from the Kelbly’s SuperShoot and well over 220 shooters and not a single person annealing. It just isn’t practical in the benchrest scene.
Dave

 

[mikecr]

Let me suggest a scenario for apparent detriment with annealing and competitive BR shooting:
The shooting is point blank BR, using underbore cartridges, at competitive peak pressures.

These pressures(~75Kpsi) are only viable in small underbore capacities. The advantage is of delving deep into diminished returns, which provides diminished variance of returns. That return being great timing, even with a handful of small reloading variances present. Their significance is just buried by that pressure peak.

To reach these pressures with mid-weight BR bullets requires high starting pressure, either through close seating or high neck tension, and fast powder.
Annealing to lower tension would be counter productive to this plan.
If the pressure drops below diminished return, all the other variances begin to take over. Grouping opens.

I believe a flattened peak pressure provides an energy reserve that ensures bullet acceleration rates to same muzzle release timing, even while muzzle velocities vary. With this, it is often noted that best precision does not correspond to lowest ES/SD.

 

[std7mag]

I was having consistancy issues with a Mauser action barreled in 284 Win.
Some range sessions went fine with under 1 MOA accuracy.
The next session would yeild 3.5 MOA.
Recoil has always been noticibly more than a lighter weight rifle in 280 Rem.

When i was loading for a different bullet weight, i backed out the stem in the seater die. I noticed a large bulge at the base of the bullet in the neck.
After some measuring i found the neck thickness was fairly consistent, but my dies were sizing too much. More a 270-284 than a straight 284 Win.

After getting a new, different manufacture die, things have straightened out.

 

[Ccrider]

this process

Ok. I will ask. What is the “process.” Annealing or something else?

 

[AlNyhus]

Ok. I will ask. What is the “process.” Annealing or something else?

It's just lightly stress relieving the necks using temps well below what most do when 'annealing'. You want to address the work hardening while keeping the brass characteristics that we need. -Al

 

[Ccrider]

It's just lightly stress relieving the necks using temps well below what most do when 'annealing'. You want to address the work hardening while keeping the brass characteristics that we need. -Al

Do you do this once or after every firing?

 

[AlNyhus]

Every 6-7 firings. -Al

 

[Dave M.]

Let me suggest a scenario for apparent detriment with annealing and competitive BR shooting:
The shooting is point blank BR, using underbore cartridges, at competitive peak pressures.

These pressures(~75Kpsi) are only viable in small underbore capacities. The advantage is of delving deep into diminished returns, which provides diminished variance of returns. That return being great timing, even with a handful of small reloading variances present. Their significance is just buried by that pressure peak.

To reach these pressures with mid-weight BR bullets requires high starting pressure, either through close seating or high neck tension, and fast powder.
Annealing to lower tension would be counter productive to this plan.
If the pressure drops below diminished return, all the other variances begin to take over. Grouping opens.

I believe a flattened peak pressure provides an energy reserve that ensures bullet acceleration rates to same muzzle release timing, even while muzzle velocities vary. With this, it is often noted that best precision does not correspond to lowest ES/SD.

This is very insightful and offers some explanation for why no BR guys anneal. If annealing resulted in better accuracy in the shorter range, high pressure 6PPC rounds, they would all be doing it.

 

[Firearmsunlimited]

It's just lightly stress relieving the necks using temps well below what most do when 'annealing'. You want to address the work hardening while keeping the brass characteristics that we need. -Al

AINyhus,
Would you mind sharing the specifics of your stress relieving process?

 

[Ccrider]

why no BR guys anneal

I find it hard to believe that none of the top short range guys anneal. How many pieces of brass do they carry to a match. Is it annealed and enough to where they don’t have to anneal at the match. Or, are they refiring the same brass during the match. Maybe some will chime in on this issue. Do they all still throw charges or are some of them using fx120s now?

It seems to me that either you anneal or change bushings as necks harden to maintain consistent neck tension. This goes for short range, but even more for long range. I don’t think any of the long range guys go to matches shooting brass with high es. Of course, as long as you keep your brass in the same rotation, annealing is not necessary to maintain low es and some of the best long range guys do not anneal.

 

[AlNyhus]

AINyhus,
Would you mind sharing the specifics of your stress relieving process?

You use enough heat to remove the stress that not beneficial but not enough to require reworkhardening (firing) before they return to the level that we can work with...and stay there for multiple firings. As such, the temps used are quite a bit lower than what's used in most 'annealing'.

As George Ulrich has pointed out, the correct term is drawing back.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[AlNyhus]

I find it hard to believe that none of the top short range guys anneal. How many pieces of brass do they carry to a match. Is it annealed and enough to where they don’t have to anneal at the match. Or, are they refiring the same brass during the match. Maybe some will chime in on this issue. Do they all still throw charges or are some of them using fx120s now?

It seems to me that either you anneal or change bushings as necks harden to maintain consistent neck tension. This goes for short range, but even more for long range. I don’t think any of the long range guys go to matches shooting brass with high es. Of course, as long as you keep your brass in the same rotation, annealing is not necessary to maintain low es and some of the best long range guys do not anneal.

What people think is done in 100-300 Benchrest (with a capital 'B' as Jackie points out) and what is really done are often two different things.

. Good shootin' -Al

 

[Ccrider]

What people think is done in 100-300 Benchrest (with a capital 'B' as Jackie points out) and what is really done are often two different things.

. Good shootin' -Al

Yep. I figured that. So, what the real deal? I would sure like to know.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yep. I figured that. So, what the real deal? I would sure like to know.

Prep 15pcs of brass and throw them in the trash after an agg

 

[Dave M.]

I find it hard to believe that none of the top short range guys anneal. How many pieces of brass do they carry to a match. Is it annealed and enough to where they don’t have to anneal at the match. Or, are they refiring the same brass during the match. Maybe some will chime in on this issue. Do they all still throw charges or are some of them using fx120s now?

It seems to me that either you anneal or change bushings as necks harden to maintain consistent neck tension. This goes for short range, but even more for long range. I don’t think any of the long range guys go to matches shooting brass with high es. Of course, as long as you keep your brass in the same rotation, annealing is not necessary to maintain low es and some of the best long range guys do not anneal.

Lol. You can find it hard to believe if you want, but it’s the truth. I’ll wait for the benchrest guys to chime in to substantiate. However, if annealing lead to improved accuracy in 100/200 yard BR game, don’t you think I might have seen ANY of the 230+ shooters at this past weeks SuperShoot doing it??? They clearly had access to AC power to run equipment but yet none annealed. I’m a huge proponent on annealing. I anneal after EVERY firing. I’m merely saying the BR game is different and they want the extreme neck tension to build high pressures, and annealing just isn’t conducive to creating the spring back of the neck they are looking for. Please trust me on this info. It’s not what I do for F class shooting, but it’s what I witnessed with my own eyes over two days in the reloading barn at Kelbly’s.
Also, everyone I saw their was using a scale, 90% digital (chargemasters or Fx120i) and 10% beam scales (RCBS, Redding, Lyman and sone blue brand I didn’t recognize).
Dave