20 practical questions

[Majday]

I meant to ask a question regarding the die. Apparently there is an issue with brass sizing to form to my gun. I’d like to think it isn’t the die but is this a common thing?
Thanks again

 

[Cemetery21]

Dies can have some small differences. Since using your 223 die as a body die solves the problem, just run any unknown brass thru that first - you should only have to do that one time.
But, if you don't have a way to measure the shoulder/setback, find a way to do that or you may end up with another problem - case head separation due to shoulders set back too far.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

What is the part number on your s-bushing die?. You can use the spent primer method, or better remove the firing pin spring from the bolt to adjust the die for correct case to bolt face clearance.

 

[Majday]

Dies can have some small differences. Since using your 223 die as a body die solves the problem, just run any unknown brass thru that first - you should only have to do that one time.
But, if you don't have a way to measure the shoulder/setback, find a way to do that or you may end up with another problem - case head separation due to shoulders set back too far.

I’ll look into that. Thank you. The last thing I want is more issues. Less is better!

What is the part number on your s-bushing die?. You can use the spent primer method, or better remove the firing pin spring from the bolt to adjust the die for correct case to bolt face clearance.

It is 77111. I’m not quite sure what the spend primer method is. So what exactly does case to bolt face clearance mean? Is that how far the bolt “travels” when chambering the round?

 

[RegionRat]

I’m not quite sure what the spend primer method is. So what exactly does case to bolt face clearance mean?

This is a method for measuring the shoulder datum length of your brass versus the chamber.

By using a dead primer cup in a sample piece of brass, you place this primer cup very proud of the base and try to gently close the bolt on it by adjusting it in a little at a time, or you can try to let the action close hard to try and force it all at once. You then measure the amount of height the primer cup "sticks up" to determine the shoulder datum length.

You can take several tries and get an average, both with virgin brass and or with your once fired brass.

Another alternate to this is to use layers of thin tape to estimate the dimension.

All methods have some slight noise in their measurement which implies you will want to try more than once with the mind towards getting a better value, and I would recommend trying all the methods at some point to learn which ones may fit best in any given context.

Is that how far the bolt “travels” when chambering the round?

No, this has to do with adjusting the shoulder datum length of your sizing operation as mentioned above.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

^^^You need to find the best method to setup dies for your rifle. That setup needs to account for function,safety and degree of accuracy or performance needed from the rifle. Your 77111 die should be able to size the body the same(not necessarily the dimensions)way as the RCBS FL, but the initial setup of the die is different in the brands(RCBS,Redding).

 

[Majday]

So the primer method is seeing how far the bolt can “push” in a spent primer into the primer pocket when closing the bolt correct? And this gives you an idea of how much bump or overcam a die is needing to be screwed down I order to achieve maximum efficiency so to speak or where the shoulder needs to be pushed back? Am I understanding this correctly?

Coyote- understood. I have formed some more brass today to play around with what I have learned from this discussion and formed about 40 with about 90-95% feeding smoothly. One stubborn one just didn’t want any part so itll be just scrap i don’t know why I couldn’t get it to chamber. I loaded it up thinking if I could chamber and fire it may be better but I couldn’t even get the bolt closed on that one. Yes I’ve found the Redding does size but not to the dimension needed for my gun so I did a multi step process and used a 226 which was fine.

 

[chuckshooter]

I have been following this post and I think you have gotten some good advice, small base die, reg. 223 die. brass needs enough room for expansion and then spring back. so tolerances are very important. the only thing I can add is, my load for some of my 20p's is 24grs of benchmark, I think 25 might be a little hot. maybe consider backing the load down. just my 2 cents.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Yes I length measure a sized case that fits properly without extra effort(bolt is without firing pin spring). Partially seat a spent primer, I leave it about 0.006-0.008 proud. Chamber closing the bolt completely. Measure length again. If 0.005 or more of the primer is still proud, you moved the shoulders to far during sizing for most bolt actions. Back the die out slightly. For hunting rifles I do not want a "crush" close, nor do I want bullets that touch the lands. It seems like MY hunting rifles are fine with 0.002-0.003. However some may need slightly more to close effortlessly, some could be less. Size just enough for 100% function. Several reloading equipment reps have told me, with military or brass fired in different rifles, if the brass doesn't chamber correctly after sizing throw it away.

 

[Majday]

I have been following this post and I think you have gotten some good advice, small base die, reg. 223 die. brass needs enough room for expansion and then spring back. so tolerances are very important. the only thing I can add is, my load for some of my 20p's is 24grs of benchmark, I think 25 might be a little hot. maybe consider backing the load down. just my 2 cents.

I agree, I’ve learned a bunch. I think I’ll invest in a small base die in the future. I know I could use it as well. Yes I think it’s on the warm end of things. I don’t have a chronograph but do you know your velo?
Thanks

Yes I length measure a sized case that fits properly without extra effort(bolt is without firing pin spring). Partially seat a spent primer, I leave it about 0.006-0.008 proud. Chamber closing the bolt completely. Measure length again. If 0.005 or more of the primer is still proud, you moved the shoulders to far during sizing for most bolt actions. Back the die out slightly. For hunting rifles I do not want a "crush" close, nor do I want bullets that touch the lands. It seems like MY hunting rifles are fine with 0.002-0.003. However some may need slightly more to close effortlessly, some could be less. Size just enough for 100% function. Several reloading equipment reps have told me, with military or brass fired in different rifles, if the brass doesn't chamber correctly after sizing throw it away.

That makes sense. Thanks for helping me get a mental picture of what that looks like. I’d never thought of any of this before so it’s nice to get examples and explanations of the process as to what is going on and the purpose behind it. I think I’ll adopt that idea as well as there is plenty of military brass to go around.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

There isn't any load data available(manufacturer) as with the saami cartridges. I run my 20p AR about 2 grains less than a 204r. Your bolt gun could possibly run a little hotter, I wouldn't expect or push to the 204r velocities. Just the difference between commercial(204) and LC(556) brass calls for lower charge weights in the LC brass.

 

[Cemetery21]

20 Tac load data is available in many manuals and that would be very close to 20P case volume. Closer than 204 anyway.

 

[L.Sherm]

Your Type S die is a neck only die thats your sizing problem. Its why I dont just neck size anymore.

 

[jepp2]

I’d never thought of any of this before so it’s nice to get examples and explanations of the process as to what is going on and the purpose behind it.

I shoot 20P in several different rifles (bolt and AR). I have 20 Practical dies (not 223 with bushings) and would be happy to size some of your brass for you. I also have lots of safe load data I have developed for 32 gr and 39/40 gr that you can start from. Also 223 small base die if necessary. PM me if you want anything.

 

[RegionRat]

Your Type S die is a neck only die thats your sizing problem. Its why I dont just neck size anymore.

Always double check what your dies really do versus their marking. It isn't hard to find instances of mis-marked dies on the forums. That said, I wasn't sure one way or the other at first, but this part number does appear to be a FL size as far as the body.

 

[L.Sherm]

View attachment 1333135
Always double check what your dies really do versus their marking. It isn't hard to find instances of mis-marked dies on the forums. That said, I wasn't sure one way or the other at first, but this part number does appear to be a FL size as far as the body.

I wonder if Redding screwed up because a 71111 is a neck size only or they just screwed up making the die.
It sounds like the O.P's problem.

 

[searcher]

To get reliable loading using previously fired (or pulldown) brass, always best to size your .20p brass through a short-base .223 die before you neck down to .20. Usually no problems after that - and you can continue to reload form that point on using your Redding die. In my 20p A/R, I have to resize my brass with the short-base die after every firing or I have loading issues. My chamber is just a tad tight

 

[chuckshooter]

I agree, I’ve learned a bunch. I think I’ll invest in a small base die in the future. I know I could use it as well. Yes I think it’s on the warm end of things. I don’t have a chronograph but do you know your velo?
Thanks

My speeds with 24gr of benchmark avg. 3700. I did load work up to 25 1/2 with speeds reaching close to 3900. and this was with the 40 gr vmax, but my best groups were with 24. also when you are shooting squirrels or prairie dogs all day, a little less recoil and heat. my primmer is cci450, the brass is different with each rifle. federal, lapua Dakota 20 tac, lapua 223 match, Winchester, and Remington. 2 are 20p's and 3 are 20tac. I can't tell any difference in performance or loading info. I now have a small base die for almost all of my varmints guns, I think I was trying to get the tolerances to close. a little more clearance in the chamber makes reloading much easier and doesn't hurt accuracy. again that's just my opinion.

 

[Majday]

There isn't any load data available(manufacturer) as with the saami cartridges. I run my 20p AR about 2 grains less than a 204r. Your bolt gun could possibly run a little hotter, I wouldn't expect or push to the 204r velocities. Just the difference between commercial(204) and LC(556) brass calls for lower charge weights in the LC brass.

I’ll remember that. I know I had the gun built because it was different and brass was plentiful and cheap- although my 204 does shoot well also.

20 Tac load data is available in many manuals and that would be very close to 20P case volume. Closer than 204 anyway.

I’ll remember to go based off that as well. Thank you

I shoot 20P in several different rifles (bolt and AR). I have 20 Practical dies (not 223 with bushings) and would be happy to size some of your brass for you. I also have lots of safe load data I have developed for 32 gr and 39/40 gr that you can start from. Also 223 small base die if necessary. PM me if you want anything.

Thank you, I’ll send you a pm. Much appreciated

Your Type S die is a neck only die thats your sizing problem. Its why I dont just neck size anymore.

I’ll post a picture and look at the die, it very well could be

View attachment 1333135
Always double check what your dies really do versus their marking. It isn't hard to find instances of mis-marked dies on the forums. That said, I wasn't sure one way or the other at first, but this part number does appear to be a FL size as far as the body.

I will double check both but that is the part number and what the case says hit like you said markings on boxes can be wrong.

To get reliable loading using previously fired (or pulldown) brass, always best to size your .20p brass through a short-base .223 die before you neck down to .20. Usually no problems after that - and you can continue to reload form that point on using your Redding die. In my 20p A/R, I have to resize my brass with the short-base die after every firing or I have loading issues. My chamber is just a tad tight

I’ve read from others it sounds like a small base die would be a good item to have in this process and just in general. I’m learning one size doesn’t always fit all. I’m thinking mine may be tight as well.

My speeds with 24gr of benchmark avg. 3700. I did load work up to 25 1/2 with speeds reaching close to 3900. and this was with the 40 gr vmax, but my best groups were with 24. also when you are shooting squirrels or prairie dogs all day, a little less recoil and heat. my primmer is cci450, the brass is different with each rifle. federal, lapua Dakota 20 tac, lapua 223 match, Winchester, and Remington. 2 are 20p's and 3 are 20tac. I can't tell any difference in performance or loading info. I now have a small base die for almost all of my varmints guns, I think I was trying to get the tolerances to close. a little more clearance in the chamber makes reloading much easier and doesn't hurt accuracy. again that's just my opinion.

Thanks for that info I want to say I got a 25 or 25.5” barrel for one reason on another but I’m using 205M with the 40 VMAX. I’m a little long on my coal however and will adjust that. I tried 25 and got a 5 shot 1/2 so I was satisfied with that and didn’t proceed any further. I had some cfe223 loads go 3/4 but had a bit of benchmark specifically for the 20p.
Thanks for the info

 

[Majday]

The die says 223 rem B/FL m4