Conundrum Copper Cleaning?

[Gargoyle]

My primary AR15 has a Faxon Arms barrel. No joke, with this gun and 77gr SMK ammo, I can shoot smiley faces at 100yds, shoot paper tacks, it's unreal. 600yd IPSC plate gets terrorized by it all the time. Coyotes don't stand a snowball's chance. SO, Borescope looks like the barrel was made from copper. LOL. I've never cleaned this barrel. 600rnds or more through it.

LITFA or thoroughly remove copper to steel?

 

[dantiff2]

You have found a unicorn! Why mess with it? I would personally go until I saw some sign that it "needs" cleaning. Think of it like an old,well seasoned cast iron skillet ; )
Dan

 

[Gargoyle]

Auto parts Brake cleaner to start. Carbon copper gone. Easy Tommy Mc Then clean the usual way.

Oh, I know how to clean copper out, just wondering if I should. LOL

 

[Tommie]

Thoroughly clean to bare steel. Then touch off a couple hundred fouling shots to get it back to shooting like it was.

 

[Gargoyle]

Thoroughly clean to bare steel. Then touch off a couple hundred fouling shots to get it back to shooting like it was.

Not in this ammo market! LOL I think I'll just use this gun as a continuing test subject in regards to copper affects on accuracy!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id keep the carbon knocked down and half ass the copper

 

[TheOtherZilla]

I always leave some copper in mine..

 

[K22]

You just discovered what I discovered last year. It's a long story and I've posted it elsewhere here explaining how I arrived at my discovery.

Bottom line, I stopped the aggressive copper removal. First shot flyers were eliminated, velocity increased, and point of impact and accuracy remained consistent.

Now I only clean with Bore Tech C4, carbon remover and I increased the round count between cleanings. It works for me, but I would not make a pronouncement to declare this to be "Gospel" - I'll only say this change eliminated a lot of problems I was having when I aggressively removed copper.

PS: You may want to take a look at gunblue490's web site and watch his posts on barrel break in, cleaning solvents, and cleaning a rifle professionally.

 

[Gargoyle]

You just discovered what I discovered last year. It's a long story and I've posted it elsewhere here explaining how I arrived at my discovery.

Bottom line, I stopped the aggressive copper removal. First shot flyers were eliminated, velocity increased, and point of impact and accuracy remained consistent.

Now I only clean with Bore Tech C4, carbon remover and I increased the round count between cleanings. It works for me, but I would not make a pronouncement to declare this to be "Gospel" - I'll only say this change eliminated a lot of problems I was having when I aggressively removed copper.

PS: You may want to take a look at gunblue490's web site and watch his posts on barrel break in, cleaning solvents, and cleaning a rifle professionally.

Gunblue490 got some good nuggets of knowledge!

 

[K22]

Gunblue490 got some good nuggets of knowledge!

Yes, and this guy is NOT a crackpot. He has an extensive professional resume.

But like all things on the internet, use your own judgement and experience and if you decide to make some changes, test it before jumping in wholesale. Here's my process:

1. First, there has to be a performance reason to change. In other words, I'm having a problem and seeking a solution. Don't make a change just for change's sake or because someone tells you its better. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

2. Is the proposed fix logically - is the fix reasonably plausible? Is there a cause and effect promulgated in the premise for the fix?

3. Test before adopting the fix wholesale - does it seem to work. Expand the test to include more data to validate the fix.

I followed this process for his proposed cleaning method, and it work terrific for me, solved my problem of first shot flyers and the need to season the barrel for consistent point of impact. I was at first very skeptically because all the experts predict all kinds of bad things will happen if you don't remove all the copper from the bore. The borescope shows all this bad stuff, and it must be removed so it is claimed!

Regarding his premise on "barrel break in", I've always done as he has done with no adverse effects. The video on solvents surprised me. I don't disagree, but I prefer Bore Tech C4 since my testing reveals that it does a superior job of removing carbon fouling - better than anything I ever used. So, the latter is an example of taking what you read with "a grain salt" and if what you currently doing works, don't fix it.

 

[Gargoyle]

Yes, and this guy is NOT a crackpot. He has an extensive professional resume.

But like all things on the internet, use your own judgement and experience and if you decide to make some changes, test it before jumping in wholesale. Here's my process:

1. First, there has to be a performance reason to change. In other words, I'm having a problem and seeking a solution. Don't make a change just for change's sake or because someone tells you its better. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

2. Is the proposed fix logically - is the fix reasonably plausible? Is there a cause and effect promulgated in the premise for the fix?

3. Test before adopting the fix wholesale - does it seem to work. Expand the test to include more data to validate the fix.

I followed this process for his proposed cleaning method, and it work terrific for me, solved my problem of first shot flyers and the need to season the barrel for consistent point of impact. I was at first very skeptically because all the experts predict all kinds of bad things will happen if you don't remove all the copper from the bore. The borescope shows all this bad stuff, and it must be removed so it is claimed!

Regarding his premise on "barrel break in", I've always done as he has done with no adverse effects. The video on solvents surprised me. I don't disagree, but I prefer Bore Tech C4 since my testing reveals that it does a superior job of removing carbon fouling - better than anything I ever used. So, the latter is an example of taking what you read with "a grain salt" and if what you currently doing works, don't fix it.

After reading your post and watching Gunblue490 video you suggested...I'm rethinking my thinking on copper removal!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Who is gunblue490?

 

[Gargoyle]

Who is gunblue490?

YouTube channel.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

YouTube channel.

Exactly.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The problem you might easily encounter with the LITFA approach is that eventually, the barrel will cease to shoot well like it apparently is right now. At that point you will have to thoroughly clean it of both copper and carbon. That job will be MUCH more difficult than it would if the barrel had been cleaned properly after each use. So, because you're going to have to clean it eventually, why not do it now and see whether it still shoots well? You can always allow the copper to build back up if it does not shoot well after cleaning. However if it does, regular cleaning will be a lot easier on you than letting the barrel foul until a massive effort is necessary to get it clean again.

 

[Gargoyle]

The problem you might easily encounter with the LITFA approach is that eventually, the barrel will cease to shoot well like it apparently is right now. At that point you will have to thoroughly clean it of both copper and carbon. That job will be MUCH more difficult than it would if the barrel had been cleaned properly after each use. So, because you're going to have to clean it eventually, why not do it now and see whether it still shoots well? You can always allow the copper to build back up if it does not shoot well after cleaning. However if it does, regular cleaning will be a lot easier on you than letting the barrel foul until a massive effort is necessary to get it clean again.

Like @Dusty Stevens said. Clean carbon, half ass the copper.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ill just say benchrest shooters of all flavors clean their barrels fully. Your game may not require that much work. You should model your cleaning regimen after the folks that currently actually win in your game. What was done back in the “neck sizing is more accurate” days usually has evolved into a better, easier, more accurate way.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Like @Dusty Stevens said. Clean carbon, half ass the copper.

Why half ass anything if it isn't necessary? Carbon and copper cleaning are not difficult if done regularly. Either one or both can become a problem to completely remove when allowed to accumulate for long periods.

 

[Gargoyle]

Why half ass anything if it isn't necessary? Carbon and copper cleaning are not difficult if done regularly. Either one or both can become a problem to completely remove when allowed to accumulate for long periods.

I took it as a tongue-in-cheek expression. Remove some copper, but leave some for the seasoning.

I agree, copper & carbon is easy to remove. I cracked the code on eradicating both. However, copper inlay and fouling are two different things.

 

[Tommie]

Ill just say benchrest shooters of all flavors clean their barrels fully. Your game may not require that much work. You should model your cleaning regimen after the folks that currently actually win in your game. What was done back in the “neck sizing is more accurate” days usually has evolved into a better, easier, more accurate way.

But in a few decades, today’s benchrest practices will be equally scoffed at.