Anyone try StaBall 6.5 in a 308 Win?

[darkangel_r2]

I doubt you would be able to get the performace you want with that bullet weight. Even a compressed load of staball loaded well past saami would probably post lower velocity than varget burn rate powders.

You may be able to use with extremely heavy 308 bullets (think 200-220gn) if you load it with the bs-bt junction right at the neck-shoulder junction and fill that case full. FTR type 308 loads.

 

[Ray123]

I'd like to try StaBall 6.5 in my 308 but can't locate any data. I searched this site, emailed Winchester and called Hogdon's. No responses. I'm looking to load 168's up to 180's.
Any help would be appreciated!

Just tried a ladder test yesterday with 308 and 208 amax. Shot it in an AR 10 with an 18" Proof Research SS barrel. Started at 44 grains jumped to 44.5 grains them 3 tenths increments of 6.5 Staball after that. Went to 48.0 grains with 2 at that weight. I was trying to keep them mag length but need to alter the seating stem as it was starting to compress around 47 gr.. the results were top velocity in a 18" AR 10 barrel was 2340 fps...now pressure signs, looks like 2400 easy with another grain or two of powder...but OAL of cartridge will not fit unless ya have a good seating stem...the accuracy was terrific at 100 yards with varying powder charges and bullet seating depths
Discounting the first 3 really low velocities the other 10 shots of the ladder test went into .630" X .870" out of an 18" AR10 is good for me. Never tried it in a longer bolt gun. As it was a long, cold day at the mountains doing 9 mm ar testing too.
I used also 1st tried 6.5 Staball in the 6mm dasher it's fast... 3133 fps with 107 SMK, 3098 fps with 110 SMK and 3044 for 115 DTAC...

 

[Ray123]

Recently tried this powder in the 308Win from my 24” 9.0 twist Bartlein barrel using Lapua Palma brass. I am used to developing loads using powders for which there are no data. Used our 175 gr and150 gr Bulldozer 2 bullets (Badlands Precision). As you might expect, I got the best speeds with the 150 gr bullet. Using 54.3 gr, BR4 primers and a COL of 2.940”, got 2974 fps and shot 0.4 MOA at 165 yds. The load is highly compressed but showed no pressure signs an the speed was comparable to those seen from a 30 06 from the same barrel length with other powders. It packs quite easily and the SD was 7. From my 300 WSM with a 27” 1:9 twist Benchmark barrel, Norma brass and BR2 primers, and the 175 gr BD2 bullet I got a max speed of 3234 fps with no primer flattening or difficult bolt lift. The load ladder ranging in speed from 3180 to 3234 in 4 shots gave a 0.5 MOA group at 165 yds. Since the powder is supposedly temp stable, it is unique amongst ball powders, and at least in these two cases, performs well.

I tried 6.5 Stabal in an 18" AR 10 with 208 amax .. started with 44.5 gr and worked up to 48 gr....but couldn't maintain 2.83" coal to fit the mag after 46.5 or so grains was compressing to much without increasing the OAL, so I increased the COAL as the powder increases. At 48 gr velocity was 2340 fps...room to go a grain or so more if ya increase the COAL so 2400 may be doable in an 18" ar barrel, but that wasn't bad for a short barrel in an AR. The accuracy was great in tbe ladder test the last 10 shots went into .630" by .870" in an ar 10 at 100 yards, with the varying lengths and powder charges.

 

[Ray123]

I'd like to try StaBall 6.5 in my 308 but can't locate any data. I searched this site, emailed Winchester and called Hogdon's. No responses. I'm looking to load 168's up to 180's.
Any help would be appreciated!

Yes with 208 and 225 eldm...it's produces very good velocities.

 

[Ray123]

I'd like to try StaBall 6.5 in my 308 but can't locate any data. I searched this site, emailed Winchester and called Hogdon's. No responses. I'm looking to load 168's up to 180's.
Any help would be appreciated!

I just updated some load testing with 6.5 Staball in the 308...but with 208 and 225 eldm, very fast with these heavy bullet loads. Posted the results for 3 different barrel lengths including an 18" AR10, 22" bolt, and a 30" bolt gun if interested.

 

[FNSafari]

The hodgdon burn rate chart shows stable 6.5 significantly slower than 760. 760 is the slowest powder they list for use in the 308, not saying this is exhaustive, but probably worth looking elsewhere.

 

[Laurie]

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic, just don't understand the internal ballistics, and would like an honest education. If Hodgdon publishes data for a 175gr bullet in 7mm-08, (not to mention weights all the way down to 120gr) I am at a loss as to why that very same powder is "too slow" for the same case and bullet weight albeit 0.62mm greater in diameter.

The case capacity to bore ratio is one of the two key metrics in internal ballistics affecting powder burn rate. (The other is bullet weight.) The usual method of determining the first is to divide case capacity as measured by the weight of water it holds in grains by the bore area in square inches. The lower the value of the result, the faster burning the powder; the reverse for higher numbers.

Using 56gn water capacity for all 308 Win variants (to reduce effort - they vary by a grain or two in practice according to calibre) you get:

243 Win ...... (0.046) ......... 1,196

260 Rem ...... (0.055) ........ 1,000

7mm-08 ...... (0.063) ......... 873

308 Win ...... (0.075) ......... 747

338 Fed ...... (0.090) ......... 622

358 Win ..... (0.100) ........ 560

The figures in brackets are the bore areas in square inches.

7mm-08 and 308 with ratios of ~ 873 and 747 respectively are far enough apart to justify different burn rate powders for optimal performance, although the 7mm-08's value is still low enough to still see good results with fast to mid-speed propellants like VarGet. (Its ratio is very close to 6.5X47mm Lapua's, another design that straddles the VarGet / 4350 powder watershed.)

At 747, 308 Win is a step lower, and counter-intuitively, is very close to that of 223 Rem - why they both find the same range of powders optimal usually.

The other factors are custom extended throats (which have the same effect as increasing case capacity through seating any given bullet less deeply in the case), and bullet weight. Because of the different bore sizes, 175gn 284 and 308 bullets aren't directly comparable. On a 'scaled' basis, a 175gn 7mm bullet is roughly equivalent to a 200gn 30-cal design.

I shoot a long-throat 7mm-08 in F-Class with the 160gn Sierra TMK normally. My usual powders are Lovex SO65 (Shooters World Long Rifle in the US) and Viht N160. Neither is a suitable powder for 308 Win. Powders suitable in 308 work in this set-up, but usually pressure-out at around 100 fps lower than the slower burners. Despite a throat long enough to see bullets loaded to just short of 3-inch COALs, I've tried and rejected 175s in the cartridge as requiring over-compressed charges and producing insufficient velocities. (You can use them in the cartridge, but they need still more freebore than my chamber has.)

 

[Ray123]

The case capacity to bore ratio is one of the two key metrics in internal ballistics affecting powder burn rate. (The other is bullet weight.) The usual method of determining the first is to divide case capacity as measured by the weight of water it holds in grains by the bore area in square inches. The lower the value of the result, the faster burning the powder; the reverse for higher numbers.

Using 56gn water capacity for all 308 Win variants (to reduce effort - they vary by a grain or two in practice according to calibre) you get:

243 Win ...... (0.046) ......... 1,196

260 Rem ...... (0.055) ........ 1,000

7mm-08 ...... (0.063) ......... 873

308 Win ...... (0.075) ......... 747

338 Fed ...... (0.090) ......... 622

358 Win ..... (0.100) ........ 560

The figures in brackets are the bore areas in square inches.

7mm-08 and 308 with ratios of ~ 873 and 747 respectively are far enough apart to justify different burn rate powders for optimal performance, although the 7mm-08's value is still low enough to still see good results with fast to mid-speed propellants like VarGet. (Its ratio is very close to 6.5X47mm Lapua's, another design that straddles the VarGet / 4350 powder watershed.)

At 747, 308 Win is a step lower, and counter-intuitively, is very close to that of 223 Rem - why they both find the same range of powders optimal usually.

The other factors are custom extended throats (which have the same effect as increasing case capacity through seating any given bullet less deeply in the case), and bullet weight. Because of the different bore sizes, 175gn 284 and 308 bullets aren't directly comparable. On a 'scaled' basis, a 175gn 7mm bullet is roughly equivalent to a 200gn 30-cal design.

I shoot a long-throat 7mm-08 in F-Class with the 160gn Sierra TMK normally. My usual powders are Lovex SO65 (Shooters World Long Rifle in the US) and Viht N160. Neither is a suitable powder for 308 Win. Powders suitable in 308 work in this set-up, but usually pressure-out at around 100 fps lower than the slower burners. Despite a throat long enough to see bullets loaded to just short of 3-inch COALs, I've tried and rejected 175s in the cartridge as requiring over-compressed charges and producing insufficient velocities. (You can use them in the cartridge, but they need still more freebore than my chamber has.)

I just fired a bunch of test loads with 6.5 Staball in 308 Winchester with 208 and 225 eldm bullets with 3 different barrel lengths, 30," 22", and AR 18" barrels.
30" 308 6.5 Staball 208= 2728 fps 225 = 2679 fps
22" 208 max vel=2640 fps, 225 eldm = 2574 fps
18" 208 gr =2527 fps 225 eldm =2477 fps
Posted load data elsewhere ..max load data appears safe in all 3 of rifles tested, use at your own risk, for informational purposes. But IMO 6.5 Staball has a place with heavy bullets in 308 Win. Had to machine a bullet seating stem to handle powder compression without a mark in the bullet.
Good day...

 

[Ned Ludd]

I just fired a bunch of test loads with 6.5 Staball in 308 Winchester with 208 and 225 eldm bullets with 3 different barrel lengths, 30," 22", and AR 18" barrels.
30" 308 6.5 Staball 208= 2728 fps 225 = 2679 fps
22" 208 max vel=2640 fps, 225 eldm = 2574 fps
18" 208 gr =2527 fps 225 eldm =2477 fps
Posted load data elsewhere ..max load data appears safe in all 3 of rifles tested, use at your own risk, for informational purposes. But IMO 6.5 Staball has a place with heavy bullets in 308 Win. Had to machine a bullet seating stem to handle powder compression without a mark in the bullet.
Good day...

I read your other post as well, thanks for sharing the info. It's obvious from your results that the Staball 6.5 can generate some pretty impressive (almost mind-boggling) velocities with heavies out of a .308 Win cartridge. However, I think the next important piece of the puzzle will be how it behaves across a wide range of temperatures. If it's relatively temperature-stable, I suspect it will gain in popularity powder amongst F-TR shooters, as long as the precision and ES/SD values remain acceptable.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

The case capacity to bore ratio is one of the two key metrics in internal ballistics affecting powder burn rate. (The other is bullet weight.) The usual method of determining the first is to divide case capacity as measured by the weight of water it holds in grains by the bore area in square inches. The lower the value of the result, the faster burning the powder; the reverse for higher numbers.

Using 56gn water capacity for all 308 Win variants (to reduce effort - they vary by a grain or two in practice according to calibre) you get:

243 Win ...... (0.046) ......... 1,196

260 Rem ...... (0.055) ........ 1,000

7mm-08 ...... (0.063) ......... 873

308 Win ...... (0.075) ......... 747

338 Fed ...... (0.090) ......... 622

358 Win ..... (0.100) ........ 560

The figures in brackets are the bore areas in square inches.

7mm-08 and 308 with ratios of ~ 873 and 747 respectively are far enough apart to justify different burn rate powders for optimal performance, although the 7mm-08's value is still low enough to still see good results with fast to mid-speed propellants like VarGet. (Its ratio is very close to 6.5X47mm Lapua's, another design that straddles the VarGet / 4350 powder watershed.)

At 747, 308 Win is a step lower, and counter-intuitively, is very close to that of 223 Rem - why they both find the same range of powders optimal usually.

The other factors are custom extended throats (which have the same effect as increasing case capacity through seating any given bullet less deeply in the case), and bullet weight. Because of the different bore sizes, 175gn 284 and 308 bullets aren't directly comparable. On a 'scaled' basis, a 175gn 7mm bullet is roughly equivalent to a 200gn 30-cal design.

I shoot a long-throat 7mm-08 in F-Class with the 160gn Sierra TMK normally. My usual powders are Lovex SO65 (Shooters World Long Rifle in the US) and Viht N160. Neither is a suitable powder for 308 Win. Powders suitable in 308 work in this set-up, but usually pressure-out at around 100 fps lower than the slower burners. Despite a throat long enough to see bullets loaded to just short of 3-inch COALs, I've tried and rejected 175s in the cartridge as requiring over-compressed charges and producing insufficient velocities. (You can use them in the cartridge, but they need still more freebore than my chamber has.)

Thank You very much. Just the kind of answer I was looking for. I somehow knew that there was more to this pie than what might be on the surface.

 

[Ray123]

I read your other post as well, thanks for sharing the info. It's obvious from your results that the Staball 6.5 can generate some pretty impressive (almost mind-boggling) velocities with heavies out of a .308 Win cartridge. However, I think the next important piece of the puzzle will be how it behaves across a wide range of temperatures. If it's relatively temperature-stable, I suspect it will gain in popularity powder amongst F-TR shooters, as long as the precision and ES/SD values remain acceptable.

I have experimented with several not recommended slow powders with heavy bullets to see what was possible like RL-26, Superformance.
But 6.5 Staball was the most productive with possibilities. Tried a few 230 Atips today since I was on the 6.5 Staball experiments, decided against the 250 Atip cause I don't want to extend the rifles throat just for an experiment. The 230 Atip reached 2625 fps and shows promise in the ladder test. Atips are expensive unless you really plan to use them. A few showed single digit S/Ds, and primer selection can change velocity a bit and effect S/D as noted in my limited test with 230 gr Atips, as I won't be doing any competitive shooting, too old for that, but enjoy seeing what is possible with the many available newer components. I will most likely run the 225 eldm and the 208 eldm in the AR for the super heavy bullets of choice as they proved accurate in certain velocity regions in respective rifles, plus they are more affordable. There has been one guy at Johnny's Reloading Bench that did a temperature sensitivity test on 6.5 Staball and 3 other powders. In that test it was concluded to be successful...for a ball powder. So it's just shooter information, not a recommendation, in case someone wants to further experiment with 6.5 Staball in the 308 with heavy high BC bullets and see if it is right for their application.

 

[TeamUSA2]

Recently tried this powder in the 308Win from my 24” 9.0 twist Bartlein barrel using Lapua Palma brass. I am used to developing loads using powders for which there are no data. Used our 175 gr and150 gr Bulldozer 2 bullets (Badlands Precision). As you might expect, I got the best speeds with the 150 gr bullet. Using 54.3 gr, BR4 primers and a COL of 2.940”, got 2974 fps and shot 0.4 MOA at 165 yds. The load is highly compressed but showed no pressure signs an the speed was comparable to those seen from a 30 06 from the same barrel length with other powders. It packs quite easily and the SD was 7. From my 300 WSM with a 27” 1:9 twist Benchmark barrel, Norma brass and BR2 primers, and the 175 gr BD2 bullet I got a max speed of 3234 fps with no primer flattening or difficult bolt lift. The load ladder ranging in speed from 3180 to 3234 in 4 shots gave a 0.5 MOA group at 165 yds. Since the powder is supposedly temp stable, it is unique amongst ball powders, and at least in these two cases, performs well.

Bullet Guy: I know this is an old conversation but I wanted to let you know as well as others on this thread that I successfully put together a load that center punched 3 rounds in one hole using 6.5 Staball powder (47.3 gr.) with new .308 Lapua case, using 195 TMKs and CCI Mag. primers (I wanted to get a more rapid ignition to build up pressure sooner) - out of a long-stroke gas piston 308 with a 20" barrel.

I didn't run my Magnetospeed on this load so I will be taking it back out to the range to first confirm accuracy, and to get velocity data... I expect to be able to report back within the next 10 days...

Best - Chris