20" 308, scope suggestions

[Ned Ludd]

Yup you can use sfp to do them as you mentioned but the problem comes in when you need more FOV or mirage is kicking up and you have to go off top magnification. I owned a couple of the NF NXS 5.5-22 and it’s a good scope but not one I would use for matches when so many ffp are available now. Years ago choices were limited. So much better now.

Agreed. It might be possible for a casual user to carefully choose a SFP scope with the calibration magnification setting very close to their most often-used magnification setting so as to be able to use it for hold-offs or ranging much of the time. However, there are also many solid FFP scopes currently available, so anyone specifically looking for a FFP scope would probably be ill-advised to purchase a SFP scope with the inherent limitations to using it in such a way.

 

[284winner]

Easy choice ... Leupold Mark 5 HD 3.6-18x44 ... it's the perfect scope for that caliber and range, and it's compact size works great in PRS-type situations.

Great choice.

 

[6bra1k]

you can seldom have too much power, so i suggest as much as yo can afford....30x min for target definition.
what you can easily forget is that a 308 gas gun with a short 20" bbl is gonna need a bunch of ELEVATION to make 1000 yards. there is a reason armalite made their ar10 (t) ( for target) with a 24" bbl.

 

[X-Caveman]

I just picked up a second gen 1 Vortex Razor 5-20x50 for $1,500 delivered, brand new. I had originally ordered the MK5 3.6-18, but after several months of waiting and no response from Leupold, I switched horses. I wanted an illuminated reticle. Maybe that was the problem. Regardless, if you don’t mind the size and weight, the OG Razor (and it’s warranty) is hard to beat for $1,500. It has a lot more elevation than the gen 2s, and it sounds like u may need it with your rig.

 

[Rob01]

Not sure where you all got the idea it will take a ton of elevation for a 20" to get to 1000. Most scopes have more than enough. 168 ELDs at 2500fps take about 12 mils to get there and on a 20 MOA mount most scopes will get there no problem.

 

[X-Caveman]

The gen one advertises 125MOA total elevation. That’s a lot. I’d rather have more than less on a flat top upper .308 gasser. It will likely take 40-45 MOA to get to 1K. Throw it in some rings & get there no problem. No base needed. Just one way to skin the cat. One downside is the 35mm tube limiting ring options….

 

[Rob01]

I know. I had a couple of them years ago. My point was to everyone worrying about running out of elevation like it's some tremendous amount. It's not.

And with an AR a mount is a better option as depending on eye relief you might have issues setting rings properly on the tube on the AR upper. Not to mention sight height being where it is comfortable.

Vortex Precision Matched rings in 35mm are excellent.

 

[CNC-Dude]

you can seldom have too much power, so i suggest as much as yo can afford....30x min for target definition.
what you can easily forget is that a 308 gas gun with a short 20" bbl is gonna need a bunch of ELEVATION to make 1000 yards. there is a reason armalite made their ar10 (t) ( for target) with a 24" bbl.

I agree! I recently shot a 600 yard match with a guy shooting a .308, I was shooting 6.5 Creedmoor. After the match, he wanted to try to shoot out to 1000 yards. I told him from my experience, 600 to 1000 yards was 18 more minutes of elevation with the 6.5. And that his .308 might need quite a bit more. He had a March 50X scope, and just another 1/4 turn and he was maxed out on elevation. He had a 0 MOA rail on his gun, and I told him a 20 MOA rail still probably wouldn't get him to 1000....

 

[Rob01]

That’s because his scope only had 60 moa total. So only 30 up and down on a 0 base. If he had it on a 20 moa base he would have made 1000 fine. I have shot my 20” bolt gun well past 1000.

 

[D-4297]

That’s because his scope only had 60 moa total. So only 30 up and down on a 0 base. If he had it on a 20 moa base he would have made 1000 fine. I have shot my 20” bolt gun well past 1000.

You put it out there , so I've got to ask . "20" well past 1,000 ". ....Accurately ? There is a small difference between getting a round to go that far , and hitting a Ten ring consistently beyond 1,000 .

 

[Rob01]

You put it out there , so I've got to ask . "20" well past 1,000 ". ....Accurately ? There is a small difference between getting a round to go that far , and hitting a Ten ring consistently beyond 1,000 .

Yup accurately. I use the 178 BTHP and have shot it out to 1150 yards on steel with good accuracy and farther but it gets into the much tougher to group range past about 1200 yards with the 20". I don't shoot paper but dropping them onto steel into groups isn't too hard but when the wind starts blowing it gets more challenging as it's pushing it's limits. For farther I will use my 26".

 

[coldboreshot]

Since you're only target shooting (like me), you should seriously consider Vortex's Golden Eagle. Yes, it's SFP, but that matters little for target shooting, IMHO. FFP is good for when you want to use the reticle to judge distance, but if you know your distance otherwise as one typically does with target shooting, I don't feel there's much advantage over SFP's. The Golden Eagle is a great value for a scope that can be had for under $1500.

I agree here with the Vortex Golden E. If you are running 600 yard with occasional 1000, this is a smart choice. I use these for Fclass from 300-1000 yards but I use the SCR (simple crosshair) reticle because of predisposition targets. If you are shooting your own targets in an "open field" setting, the ECR reticle will suit your needs with the moa hash marks for hold-overs. It also helps if your target is in the foreground of a berm and you can use the hash marks to set your hold based on impact data. Otherwise, you could research scopes that untilize the TreMor or H-59 reticles. These are mostly tactical application scopes but are just as functional for casual target. Be prepared to spend extra bills because the scopes that accomodate these reticles are quite a bit of Benjamins. Good luck.

 

[coldboreshot]

You put it out there , so I've got to ask . "20" well past 1,000 ". ....Accurately ? There is a small difference between getting a round to go that far , and hitting a Ten ring consistently beyond 1,000 .

I run Sierra 175 matchkings in a handload from a 24" barreled tac gun at a 1000 yds frequently with surprising and satisfying accuracy. The velocity reduction within 4"s of barrel is not overly dramatic. With the proper load, 1000 yard from a 20" is doable. Already tested it.

 

[LonewolfMcquade]

I put an Arken 6-24×50mm Mil on both, my RPR 308 & AR10T 308. Hell of an optic for the $$!!

 

[Ray123]

FFP has nothing to do with ranging a target. It has to do with using the reticle. If you plan to use the reticle for holds or possibly could then get a FFP. Period.

Also good question, bolt or semi?

The reticle can be used for ranging in both 1st and 2nd focal planes...the reticle can be used accurately for hold over and windage in both 1st and 2nd focal plane scopes. But the only disadvantage in 2nd focal plane is you MUST be on the scopes highest power. The disadvantage to first focal plane when your old you can't see the tiny reticle that changes size when you go down to the lowest power. First focal plane a huge disadvantage for fast close shots in cover where you are most likely to encounter game or your enemy in combat. I have own both, first focal plane on the toys, second focal plane on game or combat. Used a Leulold 3-10X Mark 4 M3 mill dot only 2nd focal plane for 17,000 of match 308 hit eggs and pop cans at 1000 yards, 25 years ago when I was young. Dialed the whole time use hold off on close misses... at 10X you're the same as a 1st focal plane scope. But you can still range at 3X or 5 X the space is just twice or 3 times the mils. And you can kill up close, like running squirrels, or a real threat will most always be up close, a low power variable 2nd focal plane can take care of that, plus your long range work, in reasonable fashion.
My vote for my all round use is a lower power 2nd focal plane. Target shooting a different story, the big clunky, heavy, 1st focal plane Vortex Razor's 4.5-27X I have on my long range toys, are good for shooting small groups. The world's best sniper used open sights, with over 600 kills...Marine sniper Hathcocks longest kill 2500 yds 8 power. Me, eggs at 1000 with 10X 2nd focal plane. The cross fine center hairs cover up the egg, ya gotta click up or down to see it behind the vertical cross hair then hold off... lots of actual shooting experience is probably more important than equipment ...just my experience. Use what ya like, but shoot what ya like...I do.

 

[Rob01]

The reticle can be used for ranging in both 1st and 2nd focal planes...the reticle can be used accurately for hold over and windage in both 1st and 2nd focal plane scopes. But the only disadvantage in 2nd focal plane is you MUST be on the scopes highest power. The disadvantage to first focal plane when your old you can't see the tiny reticle that changes size when you go down to the lowest power. First focal plane a huge disadvantage for fast close shots in cover where you are most likely to encounter game or your enemy in combat. I have own both, first focal plane on the toys, second focal plane on game or combat. Used a Leulold 3-10X Mark 4 M3 mill dot only 2nd focal plane for 17,000 of match 308 hit eggs and pop cans at 1000 yards, 25 years ago when I was young. Dialed the whole time use hold off on close misses... at 10X you're the same as a 1st focal plane scope. But you can still range at 3X or 5 X the space is just twice or 3 times the mils. And you can kill up close, like running squirrels, or a real threat will most always be up close, a low power variable 2nd focal plane can take care of that, plus your long range work, in reasonable fashion.
My vote for my all round use is a lower power 2nd focal plane. Target shooting a different story, the big clunky, heavy, 1st focal plane Vortex Razor's 4.5-27X I have on my long range toys, are good for shooting small groups. The world's best sniper used open sights, with over 600 kills...Marine sniper Hathcocks longest kill 2500 yds 8 power. Me, eggs at 1000 with 10X 2nd focal plane. The cross fine center hairs cover up the egg, ya gotta click up or down to see it behind the vertical cross hair then hold off... lots of actual shooting experience is probably more important than equipment ...just my experience. Use what ya like, but shoot what ya like...I do.

I understand you can range with SFP as well and have done it over my 30 years shooting long range. Back before FFP was a thing SFP was used but it wasn't the best tool for the job. Having to be on the top power most of the time added issues when FOV or mirage was a problem. You could also half or quarter the top power and adjust the reticle subtensions but you couldn't use the power ring to do that as they aren't always right on. You had to set up a tall target test sheet at 100 and figure the adjustment and mark the power ring. But again ranging is a dying art and not what reticles are used for a vast majority of the time today. Reticles are used for holds(wind, overs and unders, movers) and fast corrections.

Also fast close shots are also not what these scopes are used for. Even the military are using higher powered FFP variable optics now on their sniper weapons. Not low power fixed optics. They are not close range patrol rifles. Hathcock used what he had back then but I would bet if he had his choice today he would be using a higher powered FFP optic as he would see the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for long range engagements.

You should try the Razor 4.5-27 on the eggs next time. It would be much easier and with either the 2C reticle with the open center or the 7C with the small dot either will be able to be used as the cross hair width only covers about 1.1" at 1000 yards and the small dot the same and the open center on 2C is .25 MOA so the egg will sit perfectly in there.

 

[6bra1k]

The reticle can be used for ranging in both 1st and 2nd focal planes...the reticle can be used accurately for hold over and windage in both 1st and 2nd focal plane scopes. But the only disadvantage in 2nd focal plane is you MUST be on the scopes highest power. The disadvantage to first focal plane when your old you can't see the tiny reticle that changes size when you go down to the lowest power. First focal plane a huge disadvantage for fast close shots in cover where you are most likely to encounter game or your enemy in combat. I have own both, first focal plane on the toys, second focal plane on game or combat. Used a Leulold 3-10X Mark 4 M3 mill dot only 2nd focal plane for 17,000 of match 308 hit eggs and pop cans at 1000 yards, 25 years ago when I was young. Dialed the whole time use hold off on close misses... at 10X you're the same as a 1st focal plane scope. But you can still range at 3X or 5 X the space is just twice or 3 times the mils. And you can kill up close, like running squirrels, or a real threat will most always be up close, a low power variable 2nd focal plane can take care of that, plus your long range work, in reasonable fashion.
My vote for my all round use is a lower power 2nd focal plane. Target shooting a different story, the big clunky, heavy, 1st focal plane Vortex Razor's 4.5-27X I have on my long range toys, are good for shooting small groups. The world's best sniper used open sights, with over 600 kills...Marine sniper Hathcocks longest kill 2500 yds 8 power. Me, eggs at 1000 with 10X 2nd focal plane. The cross fine center hairs cover up the egg, ya gotta click up or down to see it behind the vertical cross hair then hold off... lots of actual shooting experience is probably more important than equipment ...just my experience. Use what ya like, but shoot what ya like...I do.

living in the past will get you no where.
chris kyle's(" american sniper" )favorite scope was a nightforce 8-32, the AI 300 win mag NAVY SEAL kit came with a 5-22x nightforce, the most common scope at 1000 benchrest is the nightforce 15-55, tho others get used none are 8 or 10 x scopes

 

[CharlieNC]

A lot depends on your intended shooting format. If shooting faster tactical style on steel you definitely benefit with ffp and 10x will suffice, and target acquisition with 20x is slow. But if 600-1000yd is slow paced and smaller paper targets, sfp and higher mag are benefits.

 

[Rob01]

Not really. PRS shooters use mostly 5-25 area scopes and use them in the 12-20x range most of the time. No one uses a 10x scope. No one. People realize the old "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" mantra is true.

And the whole SFP on longer is a hold over from reticles being thick and lack of good FFP scopes. No longer the case. The center dot on the FFP 7C reticle is 1.1" at 1000 yards. You can drop that on anything. I used it at a mile to hit 12" steel. Yes F Class and BR use SFP but more of a the way it's been thing and the lack of a choice of 40-60x FFP scopes. Also they don't really use the reticle for holds so having a fine basic crosshair works.

But again as Ray said, use what works for you.

 

[Ray123]

A lot depends on your intended shooting format. If shooting faster tactical style on steel you definitely benefit with ffp and 10x will suffice, and target acquisition with 20x is slow. But if 600-1000yd is slow paced and smaller paper targets, sfp and higher mag are benefits.

That's my point depends on your personal endeavors, general, or multiple applications of the weapon or an exacting application , all around, including hunting, or some informal long range. So most don't have to spend alot to get started to enjoy multiple shooting interests. If your into competition or professional shooting sports then by all means buy the specific scope that's best for that specific sport,and your personal preference. I wasn't talking about a specific sport, but what was possible for a beginner, shooting with a few friends, with an AR maybe some hunting, close range plinking, and some informal long range plinking at steel. Don't Need a high magnification, high-end ffp scope for beginners, unless you can afford it and that's what you want. I just prefer the smaller lower magnification for general use and sfp, it's what I used for many years. Today on the long range only specific rifles I too have, as stated, 2 Vortex hd 4.5-27X Razor's and a Leupold in FFP, on heavy specialized rifles...helps with my old age bad eyesight, to put them on target. Like in my dasher. But for the rest low power sfp, or 2X prism on ARs for fast target acquisition. I ain't no modern trained sniper backed by spotter, a squad of armed men with machineguns and high explosives, Blackhawk helicopters, or A10 aircraft support. Too old to run and gun, competition is out when it hurts too much to get into position. So I was just offering encouragement to anyone getting started in shooting, expensive stuff is not necessary to enjoy learning the basics with friends, not top tier competition. And many young eyes who accomplish feats of marksmanship with open sights, as encouragement, not necessarily a recommendation, just what I used in years past to enjoy shooting to 1400 yds and hunting with the same rifle...just making what ya got, work, across a range of shooting interests, on a budget. Use what you like...most do.