garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I Don't. The mechanism adjusting the tuner length kinda makes that impossible, I'd think. Might wanna contact individual tuner brake makers to see what the actual "over teh barrel" dimensions are.
Barrel tuners or other muzzle devices effect on velocity and velocity stats
- Thread starter darkangel_r2
- Start date
I think it can work like this.
Think of a shank on a normal break the part that actually touches the threaded muzzle. From that shank you attach a barrel shroud that encapsulates but doesn't touch the last couple inches of barrel. The outside of that shroud has a threaded weight than can screw the mass closer or farther from the muzzle. Add some set screws and your golden.
The only part I'm not sure how to do would be timing this thing since you would no longer have access to the muzzle threads behind the brake.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Seems like changing bbl harmonics (i..e , how a tuner works) would require significant mass be out past the muzzle. If what you suggest were possible and worked, I'd imagine someone would make such a thing, if only not to make the bbl significantly longer.
I would think the whole point of the "tuner" is to adjust the barrel harmonics. It has a similar effect as micro adjusting the load to find the harmonic node to tune for ES/SD and group size.
There are parallels here that I understand from antenna tuning, that the abrupt termination of the barrel will reflect the standing wave back up the barrel. Tuning the load, or adjusting the end mass of the barrel with the tuner, moves the harmonic node. Similar effects on external ballistics but accomplished by different means.
There are parallels here that I understand from antenna tuning, that the abrupt termination of the barrel will reflect the standing wave back up the barrel. Tuning the load, or adjusting the end mass of the barrel with the tuner, moves the harmonic node. Similar effects on external ballistics but accomplished by different means.
You should be able to put as much threaded mass on the shroud over the barrel as you want.
Bill Norris
Back in the Day
And, tuning the harmonic node for ES/SD & group size evidently changes the M V to some degree. The question is "How does it affect the M V ?" Is it stress related from barrel whip changes ?
But realistically, if micro adjusting a load without a tuner will change the ES/SD M V and group size, why would we not expect to see all of these changed by a tuner since the same affect is seen from both.
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
As I understand it, the tuner works better the more mass out past the end of the muzzle.
But Hey maybe you're on to something…. go ahead and produce it and and offer it for sale. I would buy it..
Yes as a matter of leverage the further past the muzzle you go the less mass is required to change harmonics. I can knock one up in cad... Id just have to find a machine shop to prototype it.
Barrel harmonics is such a huge black-magic topic. 
Again, from a radio antenna background, we want a standing wave at half wave harmonics of the fundamental frequency of the system, of the barrel in this case. This is stable, a standing wave. You can picture it as the barrel bent microscopically into full or half sine waves over its entire length. The shape persists unchanged except in magnitude until the ringing in the barrel stops.
A tune-able end mass, such as with the tuner brake, can help tune this fundamental frequency. We accept that hanging a Magnetospeed off the barrel has this unwanted influence. The tuner mass isn't that great a leap to accept.
The other part is tuning the load for exact timing of the bullet leaving the barrel. I'll leave explaining that part to those who have been thinking about this far longer than me. I am very new to all this. It's all a fairy tale I tell myself to explain the futzing over tuning loads for groups and ES/SD. I do see enough parallel with known science that it isn't all smoke and hookum.
Again, from a radio antenna background, we want a standing wave at half wave harmonics of the fundamental frequency of the system, of the barrel in this case. This is stable, a standing wave. You can picture it as the barrel bent microscopically into full or half sine waves over its entire length. The shape persists unchanged except in magnitude until the ringing in the barrel stops.
A tune-able end mass, such as with the tuner brake, can help tune this fundamental frequency. We accept that hanging a Magnetospeed off the barrel has this unwanted influence. The tuner mass isn't that great a leap to accept.
The other part is tuning the load for exact timing of the bullet leaving the barrel. I'll leave explaining that part to those who have been thinking about this far longer than me. I am very new to all this. It's all a fairy tale I tell myself to explain the futzing over tuning loads for groups and ES/SD. I do see enough parallel with known science that it isn't all smoke and hookum.
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Just look at what the market has already produced. Chances are someone has already tried your hypothesis. SUggests to me that what has come to market already is what actually works.
But I'm no internal or external ballistics genius.
I can't find a google images of one similar to what I described.Just look at what the market has already produced. Chances are someone has already tried your hypothesis. SUggests to me that what has come to market already is what actually works.
But I'm no internal or external ballistics genius.
If I understand your question correctly, while the effect you see whether by tuning with minute powder changes or moving of the tuner back and forth is the same, it’s two different ways to accomplish the same task. While the tuner doesn’t change max velocity it does mimic the type of changes you would see by changing velocity slightly. It “tricks” the barrel into acting like it’s longer or shorter than it actually is.
A smart man told me once that anything you can do with a tuner can also be accomplished by load tuning and I believe that but I tend to believe if a person works up as good a load as they can (with tuner installed) and then tweak the tuner AFTER your load tuning skills are exhausted that you can still improve the shooting of the rifle. We are all at a different level when it comes to tuning a load and tuners make a good crutch for those of us who are a little lacking. I also feel like a tuner gives you a little larger window of tune.
Trying to reinvent the tuner is up to you guys wanting to try it. There are some really smart designs out there already that probably address any concern you can dream up and all of them I’ve tried do work.
here is one for ya. Over at Rimfire Central CZ forums they had a contest a while back using "cheap ammo" you know the bulk stuff. Using a high end tuner known as a hose clamp from Lowes I was able to get a .246 20 round average using Remington Thunderbolt by moving that hose clamp back and forth 1/10 ( appx) inch at a time. Cant tell me that affected the velocity but it sure made that TBolt shoot like Midas +
Attachments
That's hilarious.
I miss the days when I could buy a 525 of 22lr for like 15 bucks and just screw around all day at the range.
I have a marlin xt22 that with cci standard in the summer shoots 1.75" or better for 5 at 100. I don't think that ammo like winter time though lol. Black flecks everywhere in front of the gun.
on a tuner like the Ezell or the Harrel a difference of 2 - 4 clicks is enough to get you from intune to out of tune. I have a Harrel on a Kidd .22 and depending on the day it likes anywhere between 4- 17 to 4-21. Next week I will be messing with my Ezell tuner on a .308 but from what Mike told me on the phone his tuners are similar. A difference of 2 clicks will make or break a tune
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Some harmonics are due to the structural stiffness of the system, and some are purely the length of the bbl and the speed of sound in the steel.
Sometimes the modes that are the reflections of the speed of sound and the bending and whipping modes can be manipulated to line up in our favor, and sometimes that doesn’t work out for the exit time of the bbl.
The reasons some tuners are strong effects and other times when they are weak effects just depends on which mode is being tuned and if it lines up with that exit time. At the very least, a joint in the system helps reduce the amplitude by destroying the efficiency of the reflections.
Sometimes the modes that are the reflections of the speed of sound and the bending and whipping modes can be manipulated to line up in our favor, and sometimes that doesn’t work out for the exit time of the bbl.
The reasons some tuners are strong effects and other times when they are weak effects just depends on which mode is being tuned and if it lines up with that exit time. At the very least, a joint in the system helps reduce the amplitude by destroying the efficiency of the reflections.
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if you want to play with tuners on the cheap while keeping your rifle looking halfway decent get one of these appropriate to you barrel size. If you have a taper you might need to go to a 1 piece with a setscrew and shim it.
https://www.amazon.com/Summit-Colla...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
run a piece of blue painters tape down the barrel clamp the collar a couple of inches back from the muzzle and take a sharpie and make a mark on the painter tape at the front of the collar. Shoot a couple or three rounds, evaluate the group, make a note. Move the collar back 1/10 of a inch, make another mark shoot a couple of rounds. Keep doing this and the group will change from vertical to horizontal and back to vertical. Pick a spot where the group is tight and preferably round
https://www.amazon.com/Summit-Colla...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
run a piece of blue painters tape down the barrel clamp the collar a couple of inches back from the muzzle and take a sharpie and make a mark on the painter tape at the front of the collar. Shoot a couple or three rounds, evaluate the group, make a note. Move the collar back 1/10 of a inch, make another mark shoot a couple of rounds. Keep doing this and the group will change from vertical to horizontal and back to vertical. Pick a spot where the group is tight and preferably round
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Bill Norris
Back in the Day
I believe this is true for the E C Tuner/Brake as well.
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