300 yd F-class: suitable scale?

[fatelvis]

Currently I am using a RCBS ChargeMaster to weigh my Varget charges for my 6BR for 300yd F-class. In your opinion, would I notice any changes by going to a better scale and trickling? Thanks!

 

[Dub]

I use the trickle feature on my Chargemaster. works fine for me and 600 yard f class

 

[Liven The Dream]

Currently I am using a RCBS ChargeMaster to weigh my Varget charges for my 6BR for 300yd F-class. In your opinion, would I notice any changes by going to a better scale and trickling? Thanks!

Yes.
I shoot F/Class but not 300 yard. ( have a FX-120 )
I have s Friend that does and Posts Big Scores . He has a FX-120 and is up-dating to V-4 .
He start out with a Charge Master and saw the Short Falls and up graded .

 

[MikeMcCasland]

At 300 yards, you probably won't see any improvements by using a scale with greater resolution.

Park it in the middle of the node, and a chargemaster should work just fine.

 

[CharlieNC]

My CM was tuned for slower trickling and equipped with a smaller ID dispensing tube insert and delivers +/-0.05 based on crosschecks using another scale. It is critical that the final trickling goes smoothly, no vibration or powder clumps. My personal limitations overshadow any potential improvement from charge uniformity.

Have you optimized your CM and determined it's capability on a different scale you trust?

 

[XTR]

At 300 yds you will be fine with the Chargemaster. Throw .1 low and trickle up till to your target. Helps if you pick up the pan between kernels as I recall.

I used to do it that way. At 300 yds velocity isn't as big a deal as it is at long range. Just for example, using the 200.20x a variation of 50FPS results in a 1 inch change in POI. That's still in the X ring you're assuming it's your centered on your ES, and a 10 if you're centered on one end of your ES. On the other hand, that 50FPS at 1000 yds equals about 14" of shift in POI, so best case it's a 9, worst it's an 8. That's why long range guys obsess over ES/SD. (numbers from JBM)

Once you can justify/afford the Auto-trickler get one. Not only for the precision but for the simplicity of loading. You will load faster with better precision with less effort.

It's not such a big deal for 80 or 150 rounds for a weekend local match, but when you get into loading 350 to 500 rounds for something like the FCNC, East Coast Fullbore, or PHX that runs close to a week with team shoots it's unimaginable that I could do it these days with out one. (In fact when Adam releases the V4 I'm probably going to buy one just so I can have my current setup as a backup.)

 

[fatelvis]

Have you optimized your CM and determined it's capability on a different scale you trust?

No, unfortunately I don’t have a scale any more precise than the charge master.

 

[JFrank]

Currently I am using a RCBS ChargeMaster to weigh my Varget charges for my 6BR for 300yd F-class. In your opinion, would I notice any changes by going to a better scale and trickling? Thanks!

6 kernels of varget equals .1gr that can make a difference even at 300 yards. Guys.. Do the math +or- .1gr can be a 12 kernel difference from charge to charge.

 

[Jager]

The Chargemaster is a fine scale, and will serve most people very well, regardless of distance or form of competition.

Yes, you can achieve greater precision with an A&D or a Sartorius. But seeing the (undeniable) benefit that those scales bring requires more than just the better scale. It means also bringing to bear a number of process improvements across the whole of the handloading regimen.

By the time the question matters, one is very much into the diminishing returns part of the bell curve. And at that point it's less a question of what tool?, and more, simply, the mindset that one brings.

One cannot buy small groups downrange. But the CM is a certainly a good enough scale that it gets you squarely in the game, if the rest of your handloading is sound and your aim is true.

 

[MGYSGT]

We also are restricted to 300 yards. All of those scales are + or - a tenth of a grain. I drop my charges low and trickle up. It is much faster than using the beam scale. I can live with the plus or minus scale. At 300, it might make the difference between an X or a 10. It has to be a really good day, for me to worry about that.

 

[CharlieNC]

After the process of optimizing my CM configuration I studied it's precision vs my tuned beam setup with a camera and Dandy trickler. On 25 charges both delivered +/- 0.05 gr based on an independent scale. Do not be fooled by the 0.1 resolution display as the internal resolution and logic can provide better.

For Fclass loads I do reweigh every charge on an independent scale, but the extra seconds provide more confidence. Charges continue to be within +/-.05 unless I bump the table or an unusual clump trickles through, both of which I see when it happens. Since the CM appears to truncate vs round off, the readout would not necessarily display a deviation between .05-0.10.

The key is to setup the CM to deliver slow trickling with as minute delivery as you are willing in the sacrifice of time. For me the compromise was using a small ID brass insert off eBay. I cutoff the end of a ballpoint pen which fit in order to obtain an even smaller ID to provide even finer trickling, and it worked a little better but at the expense of much longer time.

In midrange Fclass this has provided excellent vertical control, with further improvements required from the trigger nut!

 

[Doom]

The display resolution of the CM is 0.1 grains. The scale and dispenser are more accurate than that. Manually trickling with just the scale is less accurate.

Scale accuracy is not relevant as long as the one scale is always used. What is important is repeatability.

 

[CADDIE5]

Dave end the frustration and upgrade. Why cringe $$ when you go to the line with the best ammo. Components are expensive as well. Then your score is on you. Relax and shoot that clean. I know you are up to the task.
Steve

 

[RegionRat]

In your opinion, would I notice any changes by going to a better scale and trickling?

What would you say about your vertical or waterline now?

The x-ring being half MOA, are your groups sub half MOA?

As a side note... Once in a while the midrange match at my club gets very popular. Normally done at 3X600 with three relays shooting three times, a match ends in about 4 hours. But, on some occasions there were only 5 targets available and more than 3 relays worth of participants. The MD decided to split the match format to be 2x 15 shots at 600, and 2x 15 shots at 300 to allow for more targets and shooters.

There was lots of grumbling from some of the regulars. Many felt that 300 yards was beneath them or too easy...

What came out of that match was more dropped points at 300 than at 600 for many of the Masters and High Masters who were grumbling earlier, but some had it under control just fine. Those tended to have some XTC experience and knew that the 300 yard line could still blow you out by a ring if you were not watching your wind. The sling shooters fared better cause many were XTC shooters, but it really bit the F-Class shooters who didn't take care.

I got the sentiment that many of them didn't care for shooting the 300 yard line at the start since they came with 600 in mind, but by the end of that day many didn't think it was easy or beneath them any more cause the wind handed them their hat.

So fatelvis, for anyone to guess at if a A&D FX120 will make any difference in your scores, the answer depends on how tight you are shooting now and if your issues are the control of powder charge or due to other stronger effects like being at the wrong tune in the first place, brass, bullets, powders, etc.

If your verticals are <half MOA and your ES is below 30 for 20 shots, then probably not noticeable till you go to past 600. If your ES is below 30 and your vertical is above half MOA, then something else is probably wrong.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

What would you say about your vertical or waterline now?

The x-ring being half MOA, are your groups sub half MOA?

As a side note... Once in a while the midrange match at my club gets very popular. Normally done at 3X600 with three relays shooting three times, a match ends in about 4 hours. But, on some occasions there were only 5 targets available and more than 3 relays worth of participants. The MD decided to split the match format to be 2x 15 shots at 600, and 2x 15 shots at 300 to allow for more targets and shooters.

There was lots of grumbling from some of the regulars. Many felt that 300 yards was beneath them or too easy...

What came out of that match was more dropped points at 300 than at 600 for many of the Masters and High Masters who were grumbling earlier, but some had it under control just fine. Those tended to have some XTC experience and knew that the 300 yard line could still blow you out by a ring if you were not watching your wind. The sling shooters fared better cause many were XTC shooters, but it really bit the F-Class shooters who didn't take care.

I got the sentiment that many of them didn't care for shooting the 300 yard line at the start since they came with 600 in mind, but by the end of that day many didn't think it was easy or beneath them any more cause the wind handed them their hat.

So fatelvis, for anyone to guess at if a A&D FX120 will make any difference in your scores, the answer depends on how tight you are shooting now and if your issues are the control of powder charge or due to other stronger effects like being at the wrong tune in the first place, brass, bullets, powders, etc.

If your verticals are <half MOA and your ES is below 30 for 20 shots, then probably not noticeable till you go to past 600. If your ES is below 30 and your vertical is above half MOA, then something else is probably wrong.

I used to think like those regulars too, but I've come to believe 300 yards is probably the hardest distance to win at in F-Class.

In most 1000 yard matches, almost every shooter is going to drop points due to wind/range conditions alone. Shooting a perfect 600 is exceedingly rare (I honestly can't remember ever seeing a 600 at 1,000). As a result, there's some (minor) buffer for mistakes.

At 300 yards, a 600 is a must (at our club anyway), and the winning score usually requires an x-count of 40+. That means there is zero room for error in terms of gun handling, and the load development must be perfect, etc. Just safe "safe siding" all day, with a half minute gun will not get it done (most of the time).

 

[RegionRat]

I agree Mike. When shooters like fatelvis show up with their act together from 300 yards, and walk onto a 600 or 1000 yard range their first time, they get down to learning the wind.

However, if they were kidding themselves at 300 in the first place, then they walk away scratching their heads when their targets look like a shotgun pattern.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Dave end the frustration and upgrade. Why cringe $$ when you go to the line with the best ammo. Components are expensive as well. Then your score is on you. Relax and shoot that clean. I know you are up to the task.
Steve

Dave may need Steve's Cash Flow ?

 

[garandman]

Frankford Arsenal Intellidropper gets me 0.30 to 0.46 MoA

Can't see RCBS Chargemaster wouldn't.

If you haven't yet, I'd explore L.E. Wilson chamber-type bullet seaters. They took my reloads next level. 0.0005 concentricity. And measurable neck tension option with an arbor press.

 

[fatelvis]

Dave end the frustration and upgrade. Why cringe $$ when you go to the line with the best ammo. Components are expensive as well. Then your score is on you. Relax and shoot that clean. I know you are up to the task.
Steve

I agree, I’m in this far, I may as well go “all in”, and remove any possible excuses for a dropped point here or there. Besides, how else am I EVER gonna beat you guys?! Lol

 

[Rook 6]

I too would upgrade just to eliminate variables. But it would be quite difficult to see any difference on target at 300 yds between powder scales.