• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

"Short" Barreled 308 using FTR chamber/loads?

MikeMcCasland

Team Texas F-T/R
Daydreaming here...

Any of you TR shooters ever cut a short barrel (relatively speaking) using your FTR reamer? Maybe chop a TR barrel that lost competition accuracy? I'm thinking about an 18-20" barrel, specifically to thread for a can and use for ranch/truck work (hogs, coyotes, etc.)?

If so, what kind of velocity were you seeing using a standard ~2650 200.20x (Varget/N150/H4895) load? I'm very familiar with what happens when you chop an inch or two off a 30" tube, but not sure how slow you'd be pushing the heavy bullets if you cut 10-12" off. I'm guessing it's more than ~15fps per inch once you get below 28".

Were bullets still stabilizing with a 10 twist or did you have to step up to a 9t?

Anyone ever try it?
 
I think your difficulty will be with any kind of bullet getting close to the lands with the freebore that you will have, if that matters.

The rough rule of thumb that kind of works is that you’ll lose about 20 ft./s per inch under 30 inches. The reality is that you lose a bit less at the end and a bit more per inch the further back you go if I recall correctly from the tests that I’ve seen.

I have a 308 that was chambered for 185s that I turned into a PRSish setup, and I can’t get 168’s close to the lands in a magazine length round even with no plate mags. In fact I’ve got a barrel this chambered at 120 freebore, and doing some checking even it is too long for the 168 Berger to get to the lands in a magazine length cartridge.

However, on the other had it will probably shoot just fine for what you want it to do with the reamer from an FTR setup. I think my setup shoots about 1moa at 600 yds with 168s and a 25x scope off of a Harris bipod and a squeeze bag. It’s not great by FTR standards, but it worke for pretty much everything else.

. Mine is about 22” I think. I’m running 168s in the high 2600s range with Varget or 4895. one other thing about short barrels, with a 419 hellfire brake I need double hearing protection. The concussion is huge. It seriously rattles your teeth.
 
more thoughts

Take one of your FTR loads and measure the BTO where you are touching the lands, then push the bullet back to 2.85 OAL (about 2.9 if you have long mags and the feed ramp cut back) and you‘ll see what it will look like and how far you’ll be jumping.

If you are planning to feed it I don’t think the 200 class bullets will work well from a mag of any kind.
 
Exactly the kind of info I'm looking for; appreciate the response.

I failed to mention this is going to be built on a R700 long action/MCM A5/8-32 NXS setup I have laying around. It's got a 30" TR barrel on it now, but it's up around 2500 rounds, and I really only use it for shooting old match rounds, or for hitting the reset button on reloading room screwups. Dealing with a huge jump to the lands really isn't much of a concern here. Feeding from standard long action BDL-style bottom metal.

Despite the fact it'll never be competitive in TR, the setup still uses workable components for something that's a little more practical than its current form. The barrel channel is hogged out to 1.35", so it's going to house something heavy regardless.

If I can get enough velocity to make it 'worthwhile' I think it would be fun with a can. I am halfway scared it won't stabilize, and I'll end up with a keyhole running down the length of the baffle stack.

I do know what you mean about blast though. Back when I was shooting at public ranges, some idiot rolled up to the bench next to me (1ft away) with a 700 that'd been cut down to 16" and threaded with a JP tank break. It was brutal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BP1
Earlier this year, I started playing around with a handload for a DTA SRS Covert, using an 18" 10-twist barrel I had made some time ago by Mark Gordon at Short Action Customs. My main intent was to come up with something fun to shoot with "reasonable" precision that didn't consume the same reloading components I use for my F-TR match .308s. With that consideration and the fact that the barrel was not specifically chambered for the longer .30 cal bullets we typically use in F-TR (i.e. 185s, 200s, etc.), I decided to try 168 Hybrids, as I have quite a few on hand. I also decided on IMR4895 powder, as I also have a sufficient amount of that powder on hand that wasn't getting used for anything else. Finally, I had several hundred pieces of one-fired Lapua Standard (LRP) .308 brass that had been sitting in a box unused for a few years.

My initial testing suggested that somewhere close to 41.8-42.0 gr IMR4895 would be very close to a predicted OBT node for an 18" pipe (Node 6, 0.9886 ms). That load gave me approximately 2570 fps with the 168 Hybrids, at predicted fill ratio and pressure of 91.3% and 56,400 psi, respectively. Note: I wasn't trying come up with a load just under MAX at a predicted pressure of around 60-61K, just develop a fun load that shot halfway decently so the rifle didn't end up spending all its time in the safe. In that context, OBT Node 6 was readily achievable with the chosen components, whereas any load faster than ~2585 fps and greater than ~57K psi pressure would have been an in-between node. Not that I couldn't have pushed it a little harder, I simply chose not to.

My point for posting this is that some comparisons can be made, even though they are a bit loose. I have shot load with the 168 Hybrids at ~2905 fps over H4895 for years using an F-TR rifle with a 30" barrel throated short (~.085" freebore). A crude velocity comparison using the formula for kinetic energy (1/2MV*2) based on relative bullet weights and velocity suggests that loaded to equal pressure as the 168s, the 200s would have a predicted velocity in the 2650-2660 fps range, or very close to where they would actually tune in with H4895 from a 30" pipe (also an "in-between node, but one commonly used by F-TR shooters with 200s). Using the same crude method for estimating velocity between two different weight bullets with the 2570 fps IMR4895/168 Hybrid load I developed for the 18" 10-twist DTA rifle, the 200s would likely have a velocity somewhere in the 2350 fps range.

Of course there are numerous caveats to making these estimates. First off, I would probably not choose IMR4895 as a powder for the 200.20Xs in a short-barreled rifle. H4895 would be a better choice, IMO. Also, the DTA rifle wasn't throated for a long bullet like the 200.20X. Third, I wasn't trying to create a load with predicted pressure closer to MAX (i.e. 60-62K psi). Finally, .308 Palma brass (SRP) would withstand slightly higher pressure much better than the Standard .308 Win brass I am using. What that all suggests is you could likely boost that predicted velocity a bit with an 18" barrel that was throated appropriately for the 200s by using Palma brass and a better powder selection. I would't be surprised if you could safely get the 200s into the 2450-ish fps velocity range from an 18" barrel by making those kinds of changes and without generating grossly excessive pressure.

As Wade mentioned above, it is not uncommon to hear that velocity loss/gain per inch of barrel will average around 20 fps. In my hands using rifles chambered in .308 Win with barrels from 16" to 30", it seems as though with commercial ammunition preps, that is a pretty fair estimate for barrel lengths between about 16" and 26" length. After about 26" barrel length, factory ammunition doesn't seem to increase velocity much with a longer barrel. By analogy, the decrease when going from a 30" barrel to 26" would also be somewhat less than the 20 fps value. So by choosing an optimal throat length for the 200s and using a powder with an appropriate burn rate, you're probably looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of a 200-250 fps decrease in velocity by going with an 18" barrel instead of 30". Part of that will depend on exactly where the load actually tunes in. Using my QuickLoad files for the 200.20Xs with either Varget or H4895 and simply shortening the barrel length to 18", the predictions are that loads would likely tune in somewhere in the 2350-2400 fps range. Like the typical 2650 fps load with Varget or N150 from a 30" barrel that a lot of F-TR shooters are currently using, it would likely be an "in-between" node, falling somewhere between OBT Node 6 and 7 in terms of barrel time. I doubt it would be wise to hit it hard enough to actually reach node 6, and Node 7 would be much slower than necessary.
 
1630597569582.jpeg

GAP Gladius about 2010-2011.

The barrel was/is supplied as an 18.5" length, 1:10" twist, threaded for direct suppressors or adapters. We shot these with and without the suppressors to 1,000 yards using a variety of commercial ammunition and handloads. We shot everything up to and including the Hornady 208 AMAX from the standard 2.950" magazines.

Recently, I shot some Hornady 230 gr. A-Tips at 1,000 yards. Same barrel length, different chamber, Defiance XM action and box magazine for 3.200" OAL. Without significant testing, the only thing I wasn't happy with was the vertical. Maybe some more work will moderate that problem. The 1:10" twist was just fine.
 
Last edited:
I'd take a serious look at 150 class bullets with H322 powder. There is published data out there for it. It is phenominally precise in a 24" 1:11.25 308 I've shot. With as fast burning as H322 is, you'll harness most of the energy even in a barrel as shot as you're wanting to employ. Recoil is considerably lower than other 150 class recipes for 308, and the load should prove to be temp stable for you as well. You might give it a try. I'm glad I did, it's my favorite and second most precise combination.
 
I'm thinking about an 18-20" barrel, specifically to thread for a can and use for ranch/truck work (hogs, coyotes, etc.)?

We've established the fact that the 1:10 twist will stabilize most of the bullets you might select for your truck rifle. The only difference I see from the variation between hogs and coyote is your choice of bullets. Coyotes out here seem to be a little more fragile and don't take much bullet fragmentation to dispatch them. A lightweight BT or softnose design is sufficient. Hogs I've shot seem to vary depending on impact location and yardage of course. These days I usually load Hammer Hunters for hogs.

Enjoy your project!
 
I'd take a serious look at 150 class bullets with H322 powder. There is published data out there for it. It is phenominally precise in a 24" 1:11.25 308 I've shot. With as fast burning as H322 is, you'll harness most of the energy even in a barrel as shot as you're wanting to employ. Recoil is considerably lower than other 150 class recipes for 308, and the load should prove to be temp stable for you as well. You might give it a try. I'm glad I did, it's my favorite and second most precise combination.
Very close to my old 308 hunting load, for a BSA Majestic, 20in tube. I did quite well with H322 and 125g Noslers or Hornady's at around 3100 fps.
 
Funny, I got the urge to put together a short-barreled .308 on a Win Model 70 post-64 to just go out and shoot for fun last Spring. Barrel is 1-12" twist, 24 inch, and shoots the 185 Juggernauts out of a Palma-95 chamber, squeaks in at 1/2 min.

Also, I've concluded that a short barreled .308 just is not that much fun to shoot anymore...maybe if I wore a jacket? (And YES, it is available!)
 

Attachments

  • .308 Tactical #1.jpg
    .308 Tactical #1.jpg
    540.7 KB · Views: 26
  • .308 Tactical #2.jpg
    .308 Tactical #2.jpg
    531.1 KB · Views: 25

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,852
Messages
2,204,315
Members
79,157
Latest member
Bud1029
Back
Top