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Bullet help

RetiredArmy

Gold $$ Contributor
Same bullet, New lot #. As you can see there is about .025 difference between the two (bto). The shorter one shot very well out of my rifle at .027 off the lands. Do I remeasure the longer bullet to the lands and shoot them at .027 off or do I start the whole process over again.
Thanks Bill
IMG_20210720_105321_hdr.jpgIMG_20210720_105245_hdr.jpg
 
Before concluding the lots are that different, I would probably check a larger sample of the bullets if you still have enough from both lots. Let us know and then maybe someone wiser than me can answer your question about adjusting your seating depth.

If the average CBTOs are off that much I’m curious if the weights may be pretty different also.
 
Same bullet, New lot #. As you can see there is about .025 difference between the two (bto). The shorter one shot very well out of my rifle at .027 off the lands. Do I remeasure the longer bullet to the lands and shoot them at .027 off or do I start the whole process over again.
Thanks Bill
View attachment 1268089View attachment 1268090

I used to do that . . . in effect, chasing the lands as Erick Cortina puts it. When I stopped trying to keeping my distance off the land the same, I found I actually kept more consistency. And I did that for over 1,000 firings as the jump got bigger by over .025. In trying to understand why, I've come to believe it's most likely because the volume of the case that the powder occupies stays the same resulting in little or no change in the harmonics. If you move the bullet forward or back to maintain a jump, you're changing the volume that your powder works in. It's like when one is trying to tune a load by adjusting seating depth. So. . . I'd suggest making an effort to seat the bullet so that the base of the bullet is at the same depth as the bullets that have been working for you, then if you happen to need to tune the load some more, just adjust the depth accordingly as you would normally to get the depth that works best for you for that new lot. Just don't assume that the new lot seated at the same CBTO will give you the same results with that much difference between the lots.
 
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I am trying to use the Erick Cortina method. The problem I'm having is trying to wrap my head around the .025 difference. I am not chasing the lands, I was sorting bullets when I noticed the difference. The shorter bullet is the last one in the box and was used to get to the lands when barrel was new. I have held on to it to keep an eye on the throat wear. So, if my CBTO measurement was say 2.783 (example) with the shorter bullet, what do I do with the longer ones. I have measured 1 box(100) of the new lot and they are all within .002.
Thanks Bill
 
I am trying to use the Erick Cortina method. The problem I'm having is trying to wrap my head around the .025 difference. I am not chasing the lands, I was sorting bullets when I noticed the difference. The shorter bullet is the last one in the box and was used to get to the lands when barrel was new. I have held on to it to keep an eye on the throat wear. So, if my CBTO measurement was say 2.783 (example) with the shorter bullet, what do I do with the longer ones. I have measured 1 box(100) of the new lot and they are all within .002.
Thanks Bill

Likewise, I use a dedicated bullet of each size/weight that I might use for keeping track of the lands movement. That particular bullet for keeping track of the lands serves no other function, certainly nothing to do with how I might load other bullets that I will purchase. It's fine to keep that shorter bullet to keep track of your lands movement. If the rest of your new lot is within .002 of your old lot, I don't feel there's any need to change how you load them from before. Just keep that shorter bullet for tracking the lands movement . . . though the actual distance you'll have to the lands will be the difference between the shorter one used for tacking and the one's you're loading.
 
That one bullet left was from the bullets i was loading in the rifle. The new longer bullets are of the same manufacturer, weight ec. All in the new box measure within .002 of each other but .025 longer then the old lot.
Thanks Bill
 
I'd set them to the same distance from the lands and run with them. You'll know soon enough if they shoot as well as your previous lot. My guess is the shape of the ogive changed slightly so a retune may be needed. If they don't shoot as well play with the seating depth .005" and .010" on either side should tell you what you need to know. Every point up die changes shape slightly with use.
 
That one bullet left was from the bullets i was loading in the rifle. The new longer bullets are of the same manufacturer, weight ec. All in the new box measure within .002 of each other but .025 longer then the old lot.
Thanks Bill
As I explained, I'd just seat the longer bullets so that their base is at the same depth in your cases as the others you've used. It'll take some measuring and figuring. Of course, you're actual jump will be different, but that's doesn't have much effect on what you've been getting than .025 difference in the depth of the base will have. Unless of course. . . . that extra length puts you in actual contact with the lands???
 
@RetiredArmy all the suggestions will fall between keeping the CBTO the same on one end, and starting all over at the other end. When all is said and done, you end up taking your best judgment on all of that advice and taking the risk on some shooting tests.

Since opinions are worth what you spent on them... mine is to try a test group with your old recipe and the new lots to decide if you have to escalate the matter. Odds are you probably will no matter what you read here.

I don't like it when I run out of a good batch of a component either, but as often as not, when I was using good stuff in the first place the tuning held up. Not always, but at least there is hope that it will and you will be kicking yourself if you don't at least try it before you use up components to end up in the same place.

Good luck and I hope the new stuff works well.
 
I had this same question a few times when switching lot # on Berger 105 vld’s and 108’s.
what worked for me finally... is to test your same measurement with the new bullet but test it against the bto difference between new and old further in and further out. So if I understand your measurements you’ll test .002 jump .027 jump and .052 jump with the new bullet. My differences in lot #s was less but I found my tune again once adding the difference to my jump or jam
Hope this can help
 
Ideally, anytime you change a component, especially one such as the new bullets you're describing that are obviously different dimensionally from the previous Lot, you want to do a completely new load workup. However, if you see how the new ones shoot relative to the old, you can re-measure the distance to touching with the longer bullets, start at the same previous optimized seating depth, then see how they work. In that scenario, you'll have approximately .027" more bullet shank seated in the neck, so it might be advisable to drop the charge weight a tenth or two, but if your previous load was well under MAX it probably won't make much difference.

In my hands, maintaining the appropriate distance between the bullet ogive and its initial contact point with the lands is the key to seating depth optimization. As I have mentioned previously, the BTO dimension is all below/outside of that region. As long as the bearing surface/boattail of a new Lot of bullets isn't so much longer than the previous Lot as to dramatically increase pressure by taking up a substantial amount of previously unoccupied case volume, seating the new bullet with the same distance relationship to the lands is a reasonable starting point if you don't wish to take the time to do a complete workup. Maintaining constant CBTO with bullets of varying length is not difficult.

I am not stating that the BTO region of the bullet has no importance in the reloading process. The most obvious factors that can be affected by variance in the BTO dimension are pressure (i.e. longer BTO takes up more case volume, thereby increasing pressure at a given charge weight), friction, and the amount of "grip" the neck has on the bullet. However, many rifle setups are often simply not sufficiently accurate/precise for these variables to play a major factor. For example, when a shooter does a traditional seating depth test that covers a common range, let's say from .003" off the lands to .033" off the lands (.030" total range), the amount of bullet shank seated in the neck generally changes proportionally to the seating depth. It is often possible to detect subtle changes in velocity/pressure at each increment as the the bullet is moved farther away from the lands. However, these changes can often be quite small, as in smaller than the ES/SD for a 5-shot group, or the effect on average velocity of changing the charge weight by 0.1 gr. They are certainly present, but of a magnitude that is typically outweighed markedly by other factors affecting precision; i.e. major sources of error or variance. Those larger sources of error are the ones you want to address first.

One other thing you might want to consider is dimensional variance in other regions of this new Lot of bullets. You didn't mention the bullet OAL. Is the average bullet OAL about the same as the old Lot of bullets, meaning the nose region of the new bullets are shorter than the previous Lot? Or is is longer, meaning the nose region of the new Lot of bullets is equal to, or even longer than the old Lot? As you can imagine, changing the length of the nose region means changing the bullet ogive radius, something that can very easily affect the desired optimal seating depth. It may or may not be the same as the previous Lot, depending on how how different the two Lots are. In any event, no type of sorting will ever tell you with complete confidence exactly where a given load wants to tune in. Only rigorous load development and testing can do that. That is why most reloaders will tell you that when you change a component such as the Lot of bullets, it is usually a good idea to re-develop the load. In your specific situation, I doubt the longer BTO will be enough to markedly change the optimal charge weight. If it does, it's likely to be by no more than a tenth grain or two at most as I mentioned above. However, optimal seating depth might end up exactly the same, or very different. There is no way to know with certainty in advance, so you might just want to set up a new full seating depth test at the old charge weight. You can measure velocity at the same time and determine whether the charge weight needs to be tweaked a tenth or two to re-produce the same velocity as the previous Lot of bullets. In fact, there are a variety of ways you could go to try and minimize the amount of effort and components that you put into getting the load with the new Lot of bullets to shoot like the old ones. However, anything other than re-working the load completely will be to some extent "cutting corners". Sometimes that works, sometimes it does not.
 

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