.338 LM Sanity Check

[yousefnrj]

Greetings, newbie here. So far I've been reloading 9mm and 223 for about a year, and am just now getting into loading .338 LM. I've been trying to learn all that I can, and think I have settled on a plan. What I would like to know is if this sounds reasonable to others in terms of safety. I'm only shooting 100 yds for now and at this point I'm more interested in not getting hurt than accuracy or pushing limits. I also have some questions I'll add at the end.

Rifle: Savage 110 Elite Precision in .338, 100% factory spec with 30" 1:9 twist barrel

Load components:

• New Lapua brass
• CCI 250 mag primers
• VV N165 powder
• Lapua Scenar 250gr

I tried using the 'wheeler method' to find the distance to the lands, but l was unable to get a successful reading. I removed the firing pin and ejector from the bolt, and both unloaded and with an empty case (FL sized) the bolt was mostly loose at best. It wouldn't drop all the way if I let go like I've seen in some videos, but I couldn't really feel any resistance with my fingers. Once I set a bullet in there I could definitely feel the difference. The puzzling part for me was that I couldn't get it to feel like an empty case until the bullet was seated down way far into the case, like ogive into the case neck kind of deep.

I read around some more and tried getting the distance another way, by removing the bolt and pressing in a case & bullet with my finger, and then tapping it with a cleaning rod coming in from the muzzle. If I had to tap the round to get it to back out, I took that to mean I was still in the lands. I kept going until I didn't have to tap it to move the round out. I did this twice with two different dummy cartridges to make sure the reading was correct, and found 3.6220" & 3.6225" COAL to be just kissing. My comparator is still in the mail, so I don't have CBTO readings yet.

Before I had my hands on the rifle, I checked my Lee loading manual and the load they have listed (which I believe comes from VV) shows COAL of 3.681". As far as I can tell at this point, that would put me well into the lands. I'm wary of increasing pressure so I'm looking to start at 3.600" which should put me ~.022" off.

I couldn't find any published load data at that length for N165, so I picked up QuickLoad and have been working with that. I took measurements of the bullet dimensions (250gr Scenars aren't supported out of the box), seating depth, case length & H20 capacity. I read the CIP spec for pressure is 60,916 psi, so I'm trying to stay well under that. Here is are the loads I came up with that I'm planning to shoot:

3.600" COAL

• Charge Wt, Pressure Est, Velocity Est
• 76.5 gr, 37,638 psi, 2503 fps
• 78.5 gr, 40,376 psi, 2562 fps
• 80.0 gr, 42,556 psi, 2606 fps
• 81.5 gr, 44,850 psi, 2650 fps
• 83.0 gr, 47,266 psi, 2693 fps
• 84.5 gr, 49,810 psi, 2737 fps
• 86.0 gr, 52,490 psi, 2779 fps

I plan on starting at the bottom end and working up while checking signs of pressure. This is my first bolt gun, and I've read that one of the signs is a sticking bolt lever. Other signs are flattened primers, pitting near the firing pin indent, and round marks from the brass trying to move into the ejector. Is that correct?

I realize that every rifle is different and what works for some may not work for others. That said, does any of the above sound dangerous or unreasonable? Anything I'm missing? Again, not trying to set records here, just want to be safe on my maiden voyage with magnums

Open questions:

• Anybody with some factory ammo, what do you have and what COAL & CBTO are they coming in at?
• If CIP and SAAMI specs show COAL to be 3.681", and my measured distance to lands isn't junk, why would Savage use a chamber that couldn't fit that without jamming into the lands?
• Anybody with the same rifle find a similar distance to lands?

Sorry if any of this is obvious. I appreciate your time, thanks for reading

 

[ebb]

Ive owned a 338 since long before it was popular and i see little or no sense in what you are doing. Some of the start loads seem so low as to be dangerous( look up low pressure dangers and detonation). I can see no other reason to own and shoot a 338 lapua than to shoot it long range, why waste components and barrel life developing a 100yd load? Ive never heard of VV165 used in a 338Lap but maybe . It seems way too fast. Ive got Retumbo and US869 but RL 33 is the only way to fly now that it exists. Book load for RL33, Berger or Sierria 300grain bullets and when the time come to shoot you may already have a good load for distance

 

[moondog]

Welcome to the Forum!
I like the fact your being cautious. You can never be too careful. I would caution against N165, way too fast a powder. Your method of finding the lands has merit. You may be moving that bullet further into the lands than you realize. Try marking the bullet with a marker and soft, I mean really soft seat in a un primed case. Chamber the round, eject, and look for marks on the bullet. I would also look at some other load data for same weight bullets to get a starting charge. Reloder 33, Retumbo, H-1000 are proven performing powders in the 338. Good on you for asking first. Others will respond with more knowledge than me. Mine is a 338 Imp. but kinda the same.

 

[338 dude]

 

[Darwin]

Welcome. Get consistent at 100 first. New guys learn bad habits at long range. I know. Bad habits are the biggest waste of components and fun there ever was.

 

[Ironman308]

“Anybody with some factory ammo, what do you have and what COAL.“ 3.5995 for Lapua factory rounds with 250 Scenar. The other measurment (CBTO) is dependent on your comparitor so measurements may vary.

“If CIP and SAAMI specs show COAL to be 3.681", and my measured distance to lands isn't junk, why would Savage use a chamber that couldn't fit that without jamming into the lands?” Typically factory barrels to SAAMI specs will not have an issue unless you use a heavy bullet that puts the OAL longer then the magazine length.

 

[Kurz]

Ive owned a 338 since long before it was popular and i see little or no sense in what you are doing. Some of the start loads seem so low as to be dangerous( look up low pressure dangers and detonation). I can see no other reason to own and shoot a 338 lapua than to shoot it long range, why waste components and barrel life developing a 100yd load? Ive never heard of VV165 used in a 338Lap but maybe . It seems way too fast. Ive got Retumbo and US869 but RL 33 is the only way to fly now that it exists. Book load for RL33, Berger or Sierria 300grain bullets and when the time come to shoot you may already have a good load for distance

https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/338-lapua-magnum/

There is a significant amount of data for this cartridge and a broad selection of bullets and powders. My recorded data from shooting this bullet and using VVN165 powder is nearly a match. Small discrepancies will occur from any of the variables which affect our testing. The N-165 powder being somewhat cooler burning can help with erosion.

 

[Evlshnngns]

Use a sharpie on the bullet, it will show the lands when you are in them. Subtract the shiny lands mark from the oal and report back your findings.

I would start at 80. Shoot one round at 80,81,82,83,84, then shoot 3 or 5 rounds in half grain increments above that. I did these exact # with my 338lm savage lrh using h4831 and 225sst. I get your caution, but starting at 76gr is a waste. Some will argue 80 is.

 

[yousefnrj]

Thank you all for the feedback, it is much appreciated and very helpful

The reason I'm using N165 is mostly because that's what I was able to get. Initially I was thinking to use 300gr Scenars and I've read a lot of folks are using H1000, Retumbo, RL33, N570 etc but I haven't been able to get an order in for those powders at a decent price. Switched to 250gr when I was able to find some N165 as I've read people have success with that combo. I did manage to get an order of Ramshot LRT and it is currently en route, according to Midway it "...is targeted at 338 Lapua shooters. The burn rate is similar to Retumbo." Eventually I will get to trying that with the 300gr I already have.

Regarding why I'm only shooting 100yd, that's typically the longest distance available to me in the area. I believe my local range offers irregular use of 200yd lanes, and anything farther than that is hours away. Trying to get a trip scheduled in the Fall to a place that offers 900yd and I'd like to be well-familiar by then. I also just generally like to shoot and try new things, I think even at 100 I can still have a good time and appreciate the challenge.

Hearing that the factory Lapua 250 rounds are loaded to 3.5995" gives me good bit of confidence, that's just about the same length I was planning for, so I'm in the neighborhood at least. I think I'll take the advice of others and skip the lightest loads, starting at 80gr looks reasonable. I will try confirming the distance to lands using the other methods mentioned, and if everything agrees I will feel comfortable starting at 80.

Thanks again everyone

 

[ebb]

Kurz I am all over VV165 but i use in in a 6.5-284 and I love the fact it is a low temp powder for that gun as they have issues with barrel life. I just looked at the Hodgdon site and had no idea people are running H4350 and H1000 in a 338 Lapua. Ive used WC872, RL25, and Retumbo but only shot 300SMKs as they were the only 300 avalible back then. My friend switched from Retumbo to RL33 and got almost 100fps more with the RL33. I have not shot this gun since the locals at Manatee shot over the berm and the county closed the 1000yd range. Is there a VV powder with a slower burn rate than VV165 with out going to the 500 series powders?

 

[Rsadams]

Don't just use what powder you can get....Use what it calls for , you will just have to keep looking until you find what you need.... Reloading is safe and enjoyable but if you make a mistake it can be deadly... You are the safety officer... Make absolutely sure you know what you're doing and why... Just by changing bullets you will sometimes need a different powder much less using the wrong powder to start with... You're trying to make great ammo not a bomb... A blowed up gun or a trip to the hospital is never a good thing , nor will it be cheap...

 

[Ironman308]

My 338 loves the 250 Scenars. This picture was with factory Lapua ammo running at 3020 FPS. I would do some research before going to a 300 grain bullet. Other folks like the 275 ELDM. 300’s may be a little heavy to push past a mile and not transition into transonic. Search lowlight‘s posts on the 300’s In the 338. Have fun at 100 yards with load development and tall target testing.

 

[Kurz]

Is there a VV powder with a slower burn rate than VV165 with out going to the 500 series powders?

Yes.

VVN170
VV 24N41
VV 20N29

All three are really too slow to use with the 250 gr. Lapua Scenar.

 

[davidjoe]

At 100 just don’t be disappointed that nothing spectacular occurs. Bigger bores at close range don’t group as tight as say heavy barreled .223. That doesn’t mean the gun has a problem.

The math of a .338 LM works out to be 4 times the cost per shot a .223. It’s 4 times the powder weight, bullet weight, and brass cost per piece. The bullet is only 2-3 times the price, a relative bargain. “338 LPA” is one of my license plates I like it so much, but a pound of powder doesn’t load a box of ammo and so this is a really bad time in history to practice on paper :/.

 

[ebb]

How will they work with my 300 smk?

 

[yousefnrj]

At 100 just don’t be disappointed that nothing spectacular occurs. Bigger bores at close range don’t group as tight as say heavy barreled .223. That doesn’t mean the gun has a problem.

The math of a .338 LM works out to be 4 times the cost per shot a .223. It’s 4 times the powder weight, bullet weight, and brass cost per piece. The bullet is only 2-3 times the price, a relative bargain. “338 LPA” is one of my license plates I like it so much, but a pound of powder doesn’t load a box of ammo and so this is a really bad time in history to practice on paper :/.

Heh yeah no kidding, so far still cheaper than getting my cars on track or some other hobbies I could think of, though...