6CM Case separation new brass (near fatal).

[davidjoe]

OP, don’t take this question the wrong way, it always comes to my mind. Do you load handgun rounds or have handgun powder on your bench?

It looks to me like this happened on your first attempted shot through the new barrel. Surely, you took many more rounds than one to the range that day. Those next rounds you didn’t get to shoot should answer a lot of questions.

I’m surmising that chemical stored energy of powder decreases, not increases, with the myriad things that make it bad. Obviously mislabeling or improperly manufacturing powder is a separate matter.

But, your drastic problem would not likely be an isolated case if this powder had been shipped out that way. Even if you did load only “one round” so that the others can’t be compared, your powder jug contents remains.

You didn’t mention - how much of it you had already used when this happened? Was it normal? Was it a new barrel and new powder tried at the same time when this happened, if so, there’s plenty remaining in that jug to analyze, if that’s a direction you are looking.

 

[dmccrerery]

T

Element is a worldwide group of material testing labs. They have places all over the country. Call the main number explain what needs to be tested and they will tell you the best lab to send it to. You will need to deal with chain of custody forms in a scenario like this. Your attorney and the lab can help with that. The metallurgist assigned will need to know this may be used as evidence. I have no idea if the lab will even look at it from a legal perspective at this point since it's already been cut open. You will have to ask. If this is just for curiouisity, I'm sure they will do any test you are willing to pay for.

Metallurgical Testing Services & Laboratories

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Jon D Thanks for the info I will hang on to it. But that area I have covered. The main problem is powder test and find some one who can do a closed bomb test.
Dave

 

[skeeljc]

From an engineering prospective assuming the powder was the cause is not sound.

 

[davidjoe]

From an engineering prospective assuming the powder was the cause is not sound.

Some kind of powder did create the pressure... but there’s a lot of questions here ^ that I think are tough to answer.

The last thread I remember on this general subject got administratively locked - and preserved, - I’m sure they are all actually recoverable even if deleted.

 

[dmccrerery]

From an engineering prospective assuming the powder was the cause is not sound.

That is interesting. That was my primary thought. Just finished reading Davidjoes comments started me re thinking. I have been thinking about the brass separation, that reminds me of a cold solder joint. It was the only case used out of that box. I don't know what I m looking at, but when I scoped the inside of a coupe cases, it looked odd. Looks like spots of slag or flux some very fine scratches and seldom cracks all at the base/head web. Slag/Flux runs north and south and the scratches run around inside. I need to take pic and post. Need to figure out how to clear up view first.

 

[Bugs]

Maybe slightly off topic but can you folks even imagine the ramifications if this had happened where you had loaded the ammo for a friend / relative / acquaintance? ? ? I shudder to think how ugly it might have gotten and that's why I don't load ammo for ANYONE outside my immediate family.

 

[Bill Norris]

Maybe slightly off topic but can you folks even imagine the ramifications if this had happened where you had loaded the ammo for a friend / relative / acquaintance? ? ? I shudder to think how ugly it might have gotten and that's why I don't load ammo for ANYONE outside my immediate family.

NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!!!!!!

 

[Highpower-FClass]

OP, sorry to hear about your accident and glad that you are back at it, bad as it was.

In the post event analysis, has it been verified whether the chamber of the barrel was cut correctly for the bolt? If the angle of the chamber does not match the angle / length of the cone of the bolt it can lead to the area immediately in front of the case head being unsupported, which could result in the case head looking like it was sheared off. All of the pressures cutting through the case immediately above the case head, after which the gasses travel through / rupture the bolt at the extractor.

If the area right in front of the case head is unsupported by the chamber, it could result in a kaboom with normal pressures (no powder abnormalities)

 

[Walt Schmidlin]

In the 1960s when S&W revolvers were commonly used in NRA and various LE matches the .38 Special was the go to cartridge with 148gr HBWCs and 2.7gr of Bullseye powder. There were occasional blow ups, some blamed it on a double charge of Bullseye which I don’t think was ever verified. Additionally there was a another belief that a light charge of Bullseye created an explosion. Don’t believe that was ever verified either.
Ask Texas 10 has stated these types of theories are very difficult to duplicate. In the 1960s most .38 Special ammo were reloads loaded on Star and/or Phelps machines in high volumes so anything is possible.
Glad there is a survivor of the unfortunate event.

 

[KY_Windage]

Dam, After my accident I decided for water. It is supposed to be good for the yard. I retained part of my container as possible evidence. I thank all the responses and I feel for all that have experienced that moment.
Dave

I cannot believe your attorney would tell you it was okay to do this.

Ask a group of very experienced reloaders how many have accidentally mixed two kinds of powder and at least half the hands will go up. In a trial all the defendant(s) have to do is create enough doubt as to whether the cause of the accident was something other than their product.

By tossing ANY, much less MOST, of your powder you made it impossible to prove that it had not been adulterated after it left the factory. You made it impossible for the defense's expert to examine ALL of the subject powder. They are going to argue you knew or suspected you had mixed powders and that is why you tossed most of it. They will argue that, indeed, what other possible reason would someone in your situation have for tossing a powder? Most of us have cans of old powder sitting on shelves that we know we will never use, but just have not gotten around to discarding because, well, what's the rush?

I have been present at only one similar ka-boom, an A3-03 a couple of years ago. That owner (also a Dave) has still not figured out what caused. It was not his first shot of the morning. The force ripped off both lugs and if his bolt had not had the third, safety lug it would have gone through his face. His one-piece, cheap safety glasses stopped numerous brass fragments that were headed right for his eyes. The ones that went into his face did not do any serious damage. He has no reason to think he was not the cause of the failure, somehow.

This can be a dangerous sport. One little bit of inattention at home reloading or on the range shooting can result in a catastrophe. Your lugs were not sheared off despite the tremendous force they were subjected to. I'd say you were lucky it was not worse than it was. Good luck.

 

[dmccrerery]

OP, sorry to hear about your accident and glad that you are back at it, bad as it was.

In the post event analysis, has it been verified whether the chamber of the barrel was cut correctly for the bolt? If the angle of the chamber does not match the angle / length of the cone of the bolt it can lead to the area immediately in front of the case head being unsupported, which could result in the case head looking like it was sheared off. All of the pressures cutting through the case immediately above the case head, after which the gasses travel through / rupture the bolt at the extractor.

If the area right in front of the case head is unsupported by the chamber, it could result in a kaboom with normal pressures (no powder abnormalities)

Case was fully supported, I will have to post that pic

 

[davidjoe]

Dave, I think you need to leave room for the possibility here that you didn’t load the powder you thought you had.

Earlier today I asked if you load for handguns. Consider it rhetorical, whether you have handgun or shotgun powder on your bench. I don’t think you replied to that though, and certainly don’t have to. Most here are aware that handgun powder will do exactly this, in rifles. Your reply was to acknowledge my comments, “rethink” and change focus, now to the brass, which if so would have also garnered problems with many other shooters.

You said you loaded only one round, after the question of examining your unfired loads, and this all happened on that first shot. You could probably tell, that to me, the idea of taking just one round to a range with a new rifle is a really tough sell. One round doesn’t produce a group. It might not even be on paper, and won’t zero a scope. I never see someone take just one round to a range. I load and shoot one round into the ground (ranch, outside my door, from the hip) when I am unsure about pressure, so as to not waste brass, but I’d never do that one at a time if I had to drive somewhere, round trip, set up and take down. People will think you simply disposed of the rest of the rounds that were improperly loaded, or, were very unsure about pressure, that’s where my mind goes. But your modest charge weight wasn’t iffy to be unsure about, and you faced up to the gun, so loading and taking just one round is perplexing. You disposed of most of the powder, which could have proven it wasn’t over pressure, or, was a cause as you think. You don’t acknowledge aptness to confusing powders so why not save the one that critically matters more than any of them, just taping the cap on to mark it. You didn’t say whether it had performed normally, before that day.

On brass, your case head wasn’t just separated from the brass, but shattered from severe compression, like the bolt head was. A true case rupture on new brass, but clearly far more pressure than just required to separate the head, looking at it and the bolt. Your case head tried to plastically fill all space behind the barrel’s support, and force open new space. “Mere” incipient case separation does not by itself crush a bolt’s head or deform lugs. The thin brass containing pressure is certainly not stronger than the thicker steel of the barrel, bolt and action. Often, getting the front of the stuck shell out of the chamber is the main and worst result of case separation, powder spray is not uncommon, but bolt destruction and gun explosion sure would be unexpected.

In my opinion, there’s not a single thing wrong with asking this forum board to brainstorm a firearm mystery. Centuries of shooting experience chime in. But don’t do it with the foregone conclusion that since I have a lawyer, and my injuries were terrible, this is someone’s fault, and I have to win now. That kind of thinking has kneecapped this whole industry, and you started out saying how you love this sport and I do believe wouldn’t want to lay blame in the wrong place. For what it’s worth, your post is a good reminder to us all, regardless of a legal claim or not.

If I was in your lawyer’s shoes, I’d be deliberate, slow and very damn sure who I pointed at on this one, before suing a company over your near fatality. After all, even today, you yourself aren’t sure what happened either, a year in, and you were the loader and the shooter, and components selector.

 

[M-61]

Ask a group of very experienced reloaders how many have accidentally mixed two kinds of powder and at least half the hands will go up.

I hope that's not true.

 

[Bigguy1951]

I'm not trying to start an argument over what is a safe minimum, but your load as stated was 0.7grs below the listed safe load of that powder on their website. They will argue that any load below their safe minimum may detonate, and probably have data to back it up.

 

[Webster]

I had an accident Feb 2020 where my rifle blew up. Today I still have not determined the cause. Of course covid has delayed and delayed my search for the cause. I love to shoot club matches but nothing more competitive. I am retire military veteran and at 76 I would hate to give up a sport I love. I will mention the powder manufacture, but no other manufactures. I don’t want to make remarks that would be negative or taint there reputation.

My rifle was approx. 1yr old and .308 caliber, I had no problems with it and it shot well. Because of my age and several shoulder surgeries I decided to go to a 6 CM. Gun was sent to a barrel manufacture and they installed the new barrel and returned it to me. I loaded 1 round with Acc 4350, 36.1grs, and 115gr vld bullet. .020 off lands the brass was brand new never shot before. Bad day for a left hander shooting a right handed gun. My face was peppered with debris, 2 larger pieces entered the corner of my right eye 1 lodged 2mm from my brain and the other broke the bridge bone and lodged at top of my nose. Have lots of debris in both eyes, l still have my eye sight but problems expected in future.

The gun was x-rayed the Gun and barrel manufactures were at the procedure. The Powder manufacture was not present. I forgot to mention the powder lot I used was recalled. I did not know that until a month later when I saw it in Rifleman Mag.

Last Monday Mar 29, 2021 I decided to cut the receiver if my Gun Smith could not open it. Against the wishes of my Attorney.

What we found

Debris: part of the case head, primer and bolt pieces. The case was fully engaged in barrel (Supported). It looked like the case head was cut off with a scapple at the bottom of the web. When the case was removed from the barrel. We inserted a 6mm bullet into the neck of the case to see if it completely released from the case and it was okay.

Now I am trying to find a lab that can do a SAAMI spec closed bomb test with the powder used. And do a certified Rockwell hardness test on bolt. There is a stamp on one lug but not the other, I would like the test done on the bolt body also, because it more less shredded some of it.

I am open for any suggestions. Information as to whom may be able to preform the above the SAMMI specs or other test would be especially helpful. Also manufacturing standards

Dave

60mi from AtlantaView attachment 1246744View attachment 1246745

Was the bullet recovered. Where was it?

 

[hpshooter]

Glad you survived and hope you find an answer regarding the cause of the blow up and fully recover without any future problems.

Saw the recall notice on the Bulletin on this site in 2020. Checked my inventory and found an unopened 8 pounder of 2495 that fell in the recalled lot. Contacted Western and emailed photos of the lot numbers to them. Got instant verification that the powder was indeed part of the recall. Was told to fill the container with as much water as it would hold and then pour the slurry out over a wide area in the yard which I did.

The powder showed no signs of deterioration and being s tight SOB it pained me greatly to dispose of it.
Western (verbally) told me that there was a possible problem with some of the recalled powders breaking down in storage. They reimbursed me with what was then current retail which was significantly more that I paid for it at retail on 4-20-2018.

Forty or so years ago, when I was much smarter than I am today, I would have most likely "experimented" with it. Having seen the results of two Kaboom's in those 40 years and having one pound of less than one year old H322 corrode a hole in the metal lid I followed Westerns Advice.

 

[divingin]

In the 1960s when S&W revolvers were commonly used in NRA and various LE matches the .38 Special was the go to cartridge with 148gr HBWCs and 2.7gr of Bullseye powder. There were occasional blow ups, some blamed it on a double charge of Bullseye which I don’t think was ever verified. Additionally there was a another belief that a light charge of Bullseye created an explosion. Don’t believe that was ever verified either.

I'd go with double charge.

I think I used 2.0 to 2.2 gns of Bullseye in my S&W Model 52. Never had a problem with detonation.

I used 1.2 gns of bullseye in 32SWL.

That was before moving to 452AA, then Titegroup.

 

[Shinbone]

Dave - So sorry to hear about your terrible accident and the injuries you suffered. You, unfortunately, are living every reloader's nightmare - a severe and unexplained blow-up. I hope you make good progress in healing, and that your eye sight is not impaired. And, mentally you are able to get back to the firing line to pursue the sport you love.

This is not legal advice, just some personal thoughts:

At this point, due to you and your gunsmith altering the firearm, any evidentiary value it held is substantially reduced if not totally lost. In fact, all assumptions about the safety of the firearm and its configuration will now go against you. Same goes if the suspect powder was disposed of. In other words, any case you *might* have had has been severely weakened, and, with so many variables out of the powder manufacturer's control, powder manufacturer liability would already be very hard to prove in court under the best of circumstances. Maybe some aspects of the firearm can still be used to prove the gunsmith who made the barrel screwed up . . .

As I see it, at this point, the only value of finding the cause of this terrible accident would be for your own personal satisfaction and for the mental comfort of knowing what went wrong to make sure it didn't happen again.

Again, sorry this happened to you, and I hope you recover well and can get back to shooting soon.

JMHO

 

[dmccrerery]

To everyone how has contributed to my thread, I greatly appreciate your inputs. I take no offense to what anyone has said. In the beginning I wanted someone to take responsibility and I did not care who, including me. But as time went on it became clear the answer may not ever know. Financially I can't afford to go any further. Last Sat I was up late still searching for an answer. I decided enough is enough I have become obsessed and this accident has consumed me. I am done it is over and I need to get this monkey off my back. I'm very pleased that some of you have benefited from this thread. I have contacted the manufacture of the brass explained the situation and I wanted to provide them with the failed brass. What ever I can do to improve safety of their product. Real positive conversation. I feel great!
With that said thanks again to everyone. Review your reloading procedures, check for outdate powder,
be safe.

Dave

 

[Bill Norris]

To everyone how has contributed to my thread, I greatly appreciate your inputs. I take no offense to what anyone has said. In the beginning I wanted someone to take responsibility and I did not care who, including me. But as time went on it became clear the answer may not ever know. Financially I can't afford to go any further. Last Sat I was up late still searching for an answer. I decided enough is enough I have become obsessed and this accident has consumed me. I am done it is over and I need to get this monkey off my back. I'm very pleased that some of you have benefited from this thread. I have contacted the manufacture of the brass explained the situation and I wanted to provide them with the failed brass. What ever I can do to improve safety of their product. Real positive conversation. I feel great!
With that said thanks again to everyone. Review your reloading procedures, check for outdate powder,
be safe.

Dave

Probably the wisest decision you could make from following this thread and reading the post from many knowledgeable folks. Hope you continue to heal and make a 100% recovery.