Small pistol primers in 223 case
- Thread starter 1lessdog
- Start date
I wouldn’t, no.
If nothing else, think about the difference in pressures generated by say 9mm standard loads (~ 35,000 psi, 357 Mag maybe 43,000 psi) and that in a 223 case loaded with pretty much any bullet (55,000 psi & up).
Be a recipe for burned firing pins & bolt faces PDQ.
Now if your life depended on it, by all
means make sure every round counts ‘cause once your firing pin’s toast you’re done anyway.
If nothing else, think about the difference in pressures generated by say 9mm standard loads (~ 35,000 psi, 357 Mag maybe 43,000 psi) and that in a 223 case loaded with pretty much any bullet (55,000 psi & up).
Be a recipe for burned firing pins & bolt faces PDQ.
Now if your life depended on it, by all
means make sure every round counts ‘cause once your firing pin’s toast you’re done anyway.
Complex issue.
Under few circumstances would I use anything but mil-spec as CCI 41 in a 5.56 to be fired in a modern sporting rifle or any rifle with a floating firing pin or any gas gun.
With appropriate loads in a bolt gun I might substitute primers but I emphasize appropriate loads which means pistol pressures or something like a 60% H4895 load. I don't mean reduced by 10% and work up again.
I do routinely load small rifle primers and nothing else in high pressure - rifle pressure - handgun cartridges such as the 9x23 full power loads - and again if it's not full power why bother?
I do have a Tac-Sol M4gery in .22 long rifle and a pistol caliber carbine to keep my hand in. I've still got a couple thousand CCI 41 to boot. If I didn't have alternatives I'd be more tempted but I hope I'd still have better sense. Mostly I'd say why bother to use pistol primer loads with the MSR .
Under few circumstances would I use anything but mil-spec as CCI 41 in a 5.56 to be fired in a modern sporting rifle or any rifle with a floating firing pin or any gas gun.
With appropriate loads in a bolt gun I might substitute primers but I emphasize appropriate loads which means pistol pressures or something like a 60% H4895 load. I don't mean reduced by 10% and work up again.
I do routinely load small rifle primers and nothing else in high pressure - rifle pressure - handgun cartridges such as the 9x23 full power loads - and again if it's not full power why bother?
I do have a Tac-Sol M4gery in .22 long rifle and a pistol caliber carbine to keep my hand in. I've still got a couple thousand CCI 41 to boot. If I didn't have alternatives I'd be more tempted but I hope I'd still have better sense. Mostly I'd say why bother to use pistol primer loads with the MSR .
rwj
Gold $$ Contributor
Small pistol primers are hard to find too... perhaps you’ll find some small rifle primers by offering to trade?
CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
Small Rifle Standard
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
Small Rifle Standard
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.
Stumpy1
Gold $$ Contributor
The service pressure for the 9mm NATO is rated at approximately 36,500 psi (and 9mm NATO is generally regarded as pretty hot).
Standard rifle pressures run 55,000 psi (.223 Rem) and can be much higher. Yes, it is in the same range, sort of, but it IS 50% higher pressure.
Small rifle primers might be hard to come by, but eyeballs are even harder to obtain.
Based on some of the more recent reloading incidents that have been chronicled here, HARPS may becoming easier to get...
As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on Hill Street Blues... "let's be careful out there".
Respectfully Submitted,
Frank
Standard rifle pressures run 55,000 psi (.223 Rem) and can be much higher. Yes, it is in the same range, sort of, but it IS 50% higher pressure.
Small rifle primers might be hard to come by, but eyeballs are even harder to obtain.
Based on some of the more recent reloading incidents that have been chronicled here, HARPS may becoming easier to get...
As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on Hill Street Blues... "let's be careful out there".
Respectfully Submitted,
Frank
I've read somewhere probably BS that small pistol magnum are identical to small rifle.
So a few weeks ago I loaded up some of the same brand primers 3 of each, small pistol magnum and small rifle in a 223 bolt Savage and shot them. Same velocity and same POI on target. True False ?? They worked fine for me. Seemed the same pressure indications on primers. Not that I need them yet.. As always work up from low charge if you do... HB
So a few weeks ago I loaded up some of the same brand primers 3 of each, small pistol magnum and small rifle in a 223 bolt Savage and shot them. Same velocity and same POI on target. True False ?? They worked fine for me. Seemed the same pressure indications on primers. Not that I need them yet.. As always work up from low charge if you do... HB
Small pistol primer in a rifle with much stronger firing pin and spring will usually blank the primer. Causing debris in firing pin assembly that will disable trigger and striker and maybe even your eyeballs. Not worth the aggravation that will result.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Uncle Ed,
I’m not saying your right, not saying your wrong!... I use to work for atk several years ago as an electrician so I had to service all departments. I was able to obtain the data sheets on primers @ one time I could tell you off the top of my head the differences but not anymore, as I recall your correct about cup thickness but priming mix and anvils I’m pretty sure are different as I recall the only primers made there,... CCI and federal the only ones almost exactly the same were 200’s and BR2’s, I myself might try it because I’m that kinda guy but I sure wouldn’t suggest someone asking if it’s safe to say go ahead unless I knew 100% for sure!..... and I don’t.
Wayne
Second that! I have small rifle, but no small pistol!
Yes... you absolutely can do this. Back during the last great shortage (post-Sandy Hook) we ran some tests swapping out rifle primers with pistol primers to see how it effected performance. In most instances the pistol primers were more in line with small magnum rifle primers from a added velocity standpoint (depending on brand of primer there was up to 30-40 fps increase in velocity). So assume you may have some additional speed and just start adjust load accordingly. Nothing scary or unsafe with switching.
As to CCI 41 being standard for AR15's based on thicker cup material to prevent slam fires. Yeah, Fair statement; however, lots of people are using standard small rifle (CCI 400's, Winchester, etc) without any hesitation or issues in AR15's. If this is a concern for you then only use either CCI or Remington pistol primers because they are harder, and don't use Winchester or Federal which tend to be softer/thinner pistol primers.
Edit: I recommend that you use what is recommended in standard reloading practices. I would only switch IF you had no other options available to you.
As to CCI 41 being standard for AR15's based on thicker cup material to prevent slam fires. Yeah, Fair statement; however, lots of people are using standard small rifle (CCI 400's, Winchester, etc) without any hesitation or issues in AR15's. If this is a concern for you then only use either CCI or Remington pistol primers because they are harder, and don't use Winchester or Federal which tend to be softer/thinner pistol primers.
Edit: I recommend that you use what is recommended in standard reloading practices. I would only switch IF you had no other options available to you.
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dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
It can be done safely, but there are too many factors for an easy answer.
I specifically use Remington 1 1/12 pistol primers in loads I want the first hint of pressure. As far as I know, they are the only primer where there has been so many complaints of blanking or piercing, that they include a warning on the box about using them in high pressure applications like 40 S&W.
I shoot a lot of antiques and this is a perfect application, that and some of the old data will actually call for that primer or a 2 1/2.
I would never use a 1 1/2 in an auto loading rifle. After using it as a work around for weak hammer springs or lightened hammers, it would be a perfect candidate for a slam fire.
You mentioned 300 Blackout, another perfect candidate for a problem. Not all subsonic loads are low pressure. Depending on powder choice, they can be much higher than some max super loads. That is complicated by most sub data uses velocity for max load, not pressure.
The problem with using small pistol primers, is that there is no warning between very flat primer and dismissing it as a soft cup, and blowing a hole in one on the next shot.
Big difference between can you do it and should you do it. Yes, with some thought and care, in the right rifle and load, it can be done. But should you?
Post a want to to trade and how far you’re willing to travel. You’re not the only one jammed up with supplies running low of the favorite component.
I specifically use Remington 1 1/12 pistol primers in loads I want the first hint of pressure. As far as I know, they are the only primer where there has been so many complaints of blanking or piercing, that they include a warning on the box about using them in high pressure applications like 40 S&W.
I shoot a lot of antiques and this is a perfect application, that and some of the old data will actually call for that primer or a 2 1/2.
I would never use a 1 1/2 in an auto loading rifle. After using it as a work around for weak hammer springs or lightened hammers, it would be a perfect candidate for a slam fire.
You mentioned 300 Blackout, another perfect candidate for a problem. Not all subsonic loads are low pressure. Depending on powder choice, they can be much higher than some max super loads. That is complicated by most sub data uses velocity for max load, not pressure.
The problem with using small pistol primers, is that there is no warning between very flat primer and dismissing it as a soft cup, and blowing a hole in one on the next shot.
Big difference between can you do it and should you do it. Yes, with some thought and care, in the right rifle and load, it can be done. But should you?
Post a want to to trade and how far you’re willing to travel. You’re not the only one jammed up with supplies running low of the favorite component.
Wayne
All I did is post the link to "CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER " for information someone else supplied.
Remington ran Lake City from 1941 until 1985 and used the 7 1/2 primers in the 5.56 ammunition. And this was long before the CCI #41 primers were invented and used.
And now Winchester has the contract to run Lake City and they will be using Winchester primers. The most important information for primers in the AR15 is to use primers with a cup thickness of .025.
If you want to learn about the development, testing, and what primers were used in the AR15 rifle I recommend reading the book below.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks Ed ,Wayne
All I did is post the link to "CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER " for information someone else supplied.
Remington ran Lake City from 1941 until 1985 and used the 7 1/2 primers in the 5.56 ammunition. And this was long before the CCI #41 primers were invented and used.
And now Winchester has the contract to run Lake City and they will be using Winchester primers. The most important information for primers in the AR15 is to use primers with a cup thickness of .025.
If you want to learn about the development, testing, and what primers were used in the AR15 rifle I recommend reading the book below.
That was a good read. No I’m not interested in learning more about black guns I’m way to old to join the service and I see no use for them other than what they were specifically designed for. I do have a couple should the need arise.
thanks again Ed
Wayne
So have I, SRP in the 40 Super. Nevertheless, I think the SP is doable in the shorter powder column of the BO.
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