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what neck turning tool do I need not for f class shooting?

I'm not really trying to antagonize LHSmith, but I'm not certain why he brought custom actions vs factory actions into this when we are talking about how brass fits the chamber.

With the measurements I gave you, could have recommended a bushing?

Not knowing what gun it is for, or what activity (I'm assuming not F-Class competition, haha), I'd try a bushing that measured 0.003 or 0.004 less than your loaded neck diameter. So if a loaded round (not a fired round) measures in at say 0.334, I'd start with a 0.330 bushing. That should be enough tension for a hunting/general use round that doesn't spend it's life babied from press to chamber.
 
I'm not really trying to antagonize LHSmith, but I'm not certain why he brought custom actions vs factory actions into this when we are talking about how brass fits the chamber.



Not knowing what gun it is for, or what activity (I'm assuming not F-Class competition, haha), I'd try a bushing that measured 0.003 or 0.004 less than your loaded neck diameter. So if a loaded round (not a fired round) measures in at say 0.334, I'd start with a 0.330 bushing. That should be enough tension for a hunting/general use round that doesn't spend it's life babied from press to chamber.
That doesn't make sense going with a smaller bushing undersizing from the sized case, considering, I said the chamber size is .333 and the fired case is .340. As far as babied, I'm just making it more interesting that's all.
 
That doesn't make sense going with a smaller bushing undersizing from the sized case, considering, I said the chamber size is .333 and the fired case is .340. As far as babied, I'm just making it more interesting that's all.
Your chamber cannot be .333 and a fired case .340. If your fired case is .340 your chamber is around .342 if your brass is fairly fresh
 
You measure a loaded round- over the neck with bullet seated then subtract a few thou to select a bushing. Measure a loaded round on the brass youll be using and ill tell you what bushings to order. Chamber size makes no difference
 
You apparently failed to read or comprehend my post #88 ............or you don't believe it valid.
Well I have read it and you keep going back to that post and, well, I disagree with you respectfully.
Where you totally missed the point,,, and pointed it out in several other post,,, is.
In a factory rifle barrel, the idea is not to turn it down like you do for a custom barrel that has tight neck dimensions.
In a factory Barrel,, the idea is to TRUE the case neck.( like a Break rotor of break drum on a car ) The MORE MATERIAL that you have in the case neck wall thickness, the better off you are.
I do not turn my Lapua brass down past .0135, normally they run .0145 to .0153, when brand new, unfired, unturned... I believe that Lapua is the best brass that you can buy for several calibers that I own in factory barrels.( And they are not TRUE "SQUARED" out of the box. ) I believe that when you turn the lapua brass down past .0135, "FACTORY BARRELS" you run into tension issues. Here, you have a very thin case neck, trying to fill and form to the chamber wall when fired. That's a lot of room for that thin case neck to fill up when you pull the trigger. So, the thicker your case necks are in a factory barrel the better off you are, provided that the Case Necks are TRUE. Look at it like this. In a Custom Barrel. If you put a case, that has been turned down to the correct specs for that barrel, and you turned it out of round. " NOT SQUARED " it would shoot like crap. The same in factory rifles. So to say, that Trueing case necks correctly in a factory barrel has no purpose or advantage is just neglecting another Variable in my Reloading book. Just me, and I don't mean to sound like a smart, well,, you know. On a more positive note I would like to say thank you for your years of posting on this forum. I remember your post from the first time I logged on over a decade ago. lol, I'm going to shut up now and sit down. LOL:)

Outofroundcaseneck0102142021_001.JPG
 
I have a question concerning the 21st Century Tool. Never owned one, so I'm just going by the videos online. It appears to me that when starting to align a case for turning you have to align the case mouth and arbor by tweaking them either up or down. Because of this "tweaking", it appears to me that the case enters the arbor with some side pressure. Wouldn't that cause some off canter turning?
 
I have 2 Sinclair tools and a PMA. One Sinclair is the old nt-3000. I use it to turn my .223 cases. It make a very smooth cut but is a little hard to set. Once set, it makes a beautiful cut. The newer sinclair (dont remember the model) is easier to set up. I use it for my 6.5x47L cases. I replaced the original cutter( the way the cutter was ground, it did not sit parallel with the mandrel) with a carbide cutter from PMA. Now it makes a beautiful smooth cut. I also have them PMA model A and B I use for my 6br. The B cutter to set to cut from .013 to .011, the A cutter cuts from .011 to .010. Beautiful, smooth, straight cuts. The best of the 3. Both of the PMA tools came with carbide cutters. All the mandrels I use are carbide as well. I use the Sinclair shell holders (btw: made by PMA) and drive them with a battery powered drill driver.

A couple of notes: I use feeler gauges to verify my settings on the cutters. I bought one of the Hornady units. It was easy to adjust, but made a terrible cut. A lot of deep gouges that I could not smooth out. The cutter was not ground so it was parallel to the mandrel. The mandrels were too small in diameter. It sits in my box of bad purchases.

PopCharlie
I just used wet 1500 sandpaper,
I have 2 Sinclair tools and a PMA. One Sinclair is the old nt-3000. I use it to turn my .223 cases. It make a very smooth cut but is a little hard to set. Once set, it makes a beautiful cut. The newer sinclair (dont remember the model) is easier to set up. I use it for my 6.5x47L cases. I replaced the original cutter( the way the cutter was ground, it did not sit parallel with the mandrel) with a carbide cutter from PMA. Now it makes a beautiful smooth cut. I also have them PMA model A and B I use for my 6br. The B cutter to set to cut from .013 to .011, the A cutter cuts from .011 to .010. Beautiful, smooth, straight cuts. The best of the 3. Both of the PMA tools came with carbide cutters. All the mandrels I use are carbide as well. I use the Sinclair shell holders (btw: made by PMA) and drive them with a battery powered drill driver.

A couple of notes: I use feeler gauges to verify my settings on the cutters. I bought one of the Hornady units. It was easy to adjust, but made a terrible cut. A lot of deep gouges that I could not smooth out. The cutter was not ground so it was parallel to the mandrel. The mandrels were too small in diameter. It sits in my box of bad purchases.

PopCharlie
used wet 1500 sandpaper on my Forster carbide cutter
First pic before and second pic after
 

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I just used wet 1500 sandpaper,

used wet 1500 sandpaper on my Forster carbide cutter
First pic before and second pic after
AFTER you seat a bullet in that fine looking case neck measure the OD with a caliper and report back.
 
I have a question concerning the 21st Century Tool. Never owned one, so I'm just going by the videos online. It appears to me that when starting to align a case for turning you have to align the case mouth and arbor by tweaking them either up or down. Because of this "tweaking", it appears to me that the case enters the arbor with some side pressure. Wouldn't that cause some off canter turning?
the case holder and cutter is floating, suppose to find and maintain center while cutting
 
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I'll just try a expander I have and see how it goes. Have you done chamber casting to know that factory neck clearances are generous?
There is an assumption by the participants who are offering you advise and that is "If you ask a question then you are trying to learn or gain insight." However, if you immediately respond staccato style with challenging/contrary opinions or sharp tone then people start thinking that you are either Trolling or obtuse. I will try to help.

I am not an F-class shooter. I am more of a practical shooter who does pursue accuracy/precision. I neck turn because I am forming brass cases. When necking down a case, the neck's wall thickness is increases as you force a larger diameter neck into a smaller diameter neck (same volume of brass now reformed into a smaller diameter neck). I am neck turning so that the newly formed case will fit into the rifle chamber and and also fit a bullet inside the case. This isn't your issue with a factory rifle.

Factory barrels tend to have loose chambers as a result of manufacturer's using reamers that will cut a chamber that can fit any factory ammo into it and function reliably, which translates into more generous dimensions. Factory rifles are geared toward 1moa construction. Specs for a deer rifle are significantly different then for precision shooting. This is not to say that you might get lucky and have a tighter chamber or a sub 1MOA rifle with a factory setup, but it is less likely.

Assuming that the chamber is loose (oversized compared to a custom built rifle/premium barrel) then neck turning (reducing the neck diameter) will enlarge the gap between the case neck dimension and the chamber's neck dimension. Regardless of the thickness of the neck's case walls, the neck will expand during firing to fit the rifle's chamber. This may or may not affect your accuracy, but it does shorten the brass life because you are now shrinking and expanding the case neck a greater distance then if neck's brass was not turned (thinned). Even without neck turning, different brand brass cases (different headstamps) are known to have different case thicknesses and correspondingly may fit a specific chamber more tightly or loosely.

For a factory rifle, neck turning cases is much further down the list of steps to improving accuracy. You will gain more from replacing factory trigger, upgrading stock (bedding the action and if crappy tupperware stock getting a new rigid stock), quality bullets that match to your barrel's twist rate, quality brass for reloading (buy a box or two of Lapua) or at least make certain brass is same brand (mixed range brass is to inconsistent for to be reliably for precision). Lastly, spend some time developing a load, which may require trying several different bullets and powder combinations. Even when I know the bullet, powder, and COAL, I will still go through a box of bullets (50-100 rounds) dialing in my powder charge to find most accurate load. If you are already doing this then you have covered the basics.

The easiest way to avoid the doughnut is to Full Length Resize your brass. If you want to go an extra step you can remove the expander button from the Resizing die and in a second step use an expander mandrel to create a uniform Neck ID to improve neck tension. You may or may not notice any difference in a factory chambered barrel.

As a kid I spent endless hours trying to max out the potential accuracy of factory rifles. With reloading I could always improve a rifles performance, but there was a limit to how much. Some guys like chasing a problem and the pleasure is this activity, and not the outcome. I learned from watching my dad that there was a limit to how much effort I was willing to throw down a hole blindly without knowing if it would be wasted. I have rifles that I decided from the onset that 1moa is all I wanted or needed from it and the only change was to improve the trigger if needed. I have other rifles that I want one hole accuracy and that is a totally different pony. If it were me then before I would consider neck turning, I would start with rebarreling the rifle with a premium quality barrel (Bartlein, Kreiger, Leija, etc) done by a competent gunsmith.
 
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You have your opinion and I have mine. I think I'll leave at that. And there are very few of guys like you who think that I am being a troll... so I believe you are the silent minority. BTW have you ever chamber cast a rifle?
 
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