Neck turning question

[Scooby-93]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but with regards to not neck turning brass that has been through a bushing die, how do the wildcat guys fair?

When necking down from say 22cal to 20cal using a FL bushing die as the new calibre is a wildcat and no standard FL dies are available for that calibre, so the only choice is to use bushing dies to get the neck down to the appropriate size.

If the necks need turned for correct chamber clearance/expansion and the brass has been turned down into the neck/shoulder junction what will that mean?

Too thin brass at the junction and a risk of the neck separating or lack of neck tension in that area?

 

[jackieschmidt]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but with regards to not neck turning brass that has been through a bushing die, how do the wildcat guys fair?

When necking down from say 22cal to 20cal using a FL bushing die as the new calibre is a wildcat and no standard FL dies are available for that calibre, so the only choice is to use bushing dies to get the neck down to the appropriate size.

If the necks need turned for correct chamber clearance/expansion and the brass has been turned down into the neck/shoulder junction what will that mean?

Too thin brass at the junction and a risk of the neck separating or lack of neck tension in that area?

Yes. I explain the scenario in post #12. If you are going to turn necks that are already oversized, you have to figure out a way to size the neck down to the appropriate size for it’s entire length.

 

[DJSBRS]

Hornady makes a neck sizing die only for .20 caliber that will size down to the shoulder.

That is what I use to turn neck for my customers requesting .20 caliber neck turning.

DJ

DJ's Brass Service
205-461-4680

 

[searcher]

No! You can't use a bushing-style die before turning, there is 20thou or sometimes a lot more of unsized neck with bushing. As mentioned above, you'll cut this several to many thousands thinner than the rest of the neck which could cause significant problems.

Yes you can. Been doing it for 30 years problem free. That is why I said not to cut into the neck as one normally would - AND to preceed this operation with the neck mandrel.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

FWIW - I'm trying an experiment based on a conversation I had with JoeR. I know him in real life; shoot matches with him etc. He's a good shooter/reloader; hence why I'm willing to step outside my comfort zone a little.

I'm actually in the same situation as the OP. I've got some Hornady 6GT brass that I've fired a few times and only sized via bushing die (nobody makes an FL die for a 6GT currently).

That said, I've turned about 20 cases so far this evening, but plan to finish out a batch of 100. If it works, I'll have learned something new. Worst case I break a neck in a chamber....it's just Hornady brass after-all.

The unsized portion of my necks measures .268, the sized portion measured .2665. I'm turning them to .012, and the OD comes out to ~.2645-.265 post-turn.

 

[searcher]

Yes you can. Been doing it for 30 years problem free. That is why I said not to cut into the neck as one normally would - AND to preceed this operation with the neck mandrel.

AND I assumed (perhaps improperly) one would KNOW not to use a tight bushing. The dynamics of getting a neck as straight as possible prior to turning would not be aided by taking down the neck in size any more than necessary to straighten it out - you are not sizing to seat bullets in this stage of brass prep.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

FWIW - I'm trying an experiment based on a conversation I had with JoeR. I know him in real life; shoot matches with him etc. He's a good shooter/reloader; hence why I'm willing to step outside my comfort zone a little.

I'm actually in the same situation as the OP. I've got some Hornady 6GT brass that I've fired a few times and only sized via bushing die (nobody makes an FL die for a 6GT currently).

That said, I've turned about 20 cases so far this evening, but plan to finish out a batch of 100. If it works, I'll have learned something new. Worst case I break a neck in a chamber....it's just Hornady brass after-all.

The unsized portion of my necks measures .268, the sized portion measured .2665. I'm turning them to .012, and the OD comes out to ~.2645-.265 post-turn.

Following up publicly to give @Joe R some validation.

I turned 100 Hornady cases that were fired in a .273 chamber (multiple times), sized with a .267 bushing, and mandreled up with a .242 bushing.

The cases were AMP annealed before turning, and I did cut into the shoulder; not a lot, didn't go crazy with it. Cases started at ~.0118-.145 thickness; most were .013-.014, and I turned them to .012" even.

I went out to a place where I could do load dev on-site; I even brought the tools I figured I would need to extract a broken case neck. Fortunately I didn't need them.

I was running 105 Hybrids at ~3100 with H4350; basically trying to 'step on it' a little bit to see if I could induce a failure.

Didn't get a single one; actually ended up shooting one of the tightest 300 yard groups of my life...go figure with Hornady brass lol.

Anyway, I don't know that I'm necessarily going to start turning a bunch of bushing sized brass. It admittedly still weirds me out a little bit, but it can be done and the gun probably won't rip the neck off every piece of brass.

 

[dixiecricket]

Im running into some similar problems. Can't I just put a bushing on a surface grinder and shorten until there is little to no radius left on the bushing? Seems like the radius is where my necks are unsized.

 

[johara1]

get a neck sizing die without a bushing and size the neck down to the shoulder and expand it up with a mandrel for the proper clearance for for you neck turner mandrel...... jim

 

[skeeljc]

A Wilson bushing neck sizer die will size the neck all the way to the shoulder.

Note: Sizing the neck down to the shoulder can change the shoulder angle and neck bump.

 

[DJSBRS]

A Wilson bushing neck sizer die will size the neck all the way to the shoulder.

Note: Sizing the neck down to the shoulder can change the shoulder angle and neck bump.

May I ask what a "neck bump" is?

DJ
DJ's Brass service
205-461-4680

 

[Lone Hunter]

May I ask what a "neck bump" is?

DJ
DJ's Brass service
205-461-4680

Can’t speak for him but what I believe he is saying is when you size the neck (bushing) then in the same step size the body and set the shoulder back (Type S Die) you set the bushing down too far it will crimp the shoulder. I think that is what he is saying.

 

[johara1]

A Wilson bushing neck sizer die will size the neck all the way to the shoulder.

Note: Sizing the neck down to the shoulder can change the shoulder angle and neck bump.

That isn't possible, what would hold the bushing in the die ?? I only go down till it touches the shoulder jim

 

[Uncle Ed]

CASE SIZING 1: SIZING DIE SELECTION​

http://www.mssblog.com/2016/02/02/case-sizing-1-sizing-die-selection/

Neck-bushing-style dies (in conjunction with full-length sizing die body) seem like a really good idea, and they can be — but they are another step in controlling case dimensions that most of us don’t want to take or need to take. My biggest issue with bushing dies is that they don’t size the full length of the case neck, and that can create problems. The arrow points to the small area of the case neck that is sized.

 

[skeeljc]

That isn't possible, what would hold the bushing in the die ?? I only go down till it touches the shoulder jim

The removable top of the Wilson die holds the bushing in place. My only experience is with the Wilson .223 Remington die (see below). It sizes the entire neck where my Redding Type S bushing die only sizes 0.150" of the neck.

 

[DJSBRS]

CASE SIZING 1: SIZING DIE SELECTION​

http://www.mssblog.com/2016/02/02/case-sizing-1-sizing-die-selection/

Neck-bushing-style dies (in conjunction with full-length sizing die body) seem like a really good idea, and they can be — but they are another step in controlling case dimensions that most of us don’t want to take or need to take. My biggest issue with bushing dies is that they don’t size the full length of the case neck, and that can create problems. The arrow points to the small area of the case neck that is sized.

Exactly!

DJ

DJ's Brass Service
205-461-4680

 

[shoot4fun]

There are dies out there that can size all the way down the neck. The ones that come to mind are a properly set up Lee Collet Die and a Hornady neck die. While Lee sells their dies by cartridge Hornady sells theirs by caliber.
I will use these dies when I want to trim the brass using my Giraud Trimmer. For those that aren't familiar the Giraud uses a cartridge specific case hold to feed the brass neck into the cutter. If all the neck isn't sized down to factory spec the brass doesn't always get to the cutter in a consistent manner and will lead to inconsistent trim length and brass that sticks in the holder.

 

[johara1]

The removable top of the Wilson die holds the bushing in place. My only experience is with the Wilson .223 Remington die (see below). It sizes the entire neck where my Redding Type S bushing die only sizes 0.150" of the neck.
View attachment 1219826

Yes the top has nothing to do with it the is a seperation between the shoulder and where the bushing sets it can not size to the shoulder. look a the pic Ed put in above your post.. I have a die I bored out the shoulder so I can size any 6mm neck to the shoulder ....... jim

 

[pg12340]

Hey everyone...here is an update on what I did. I ended up buying a standard FL sizing die (nonbushing) I got the redding one for like $30. Once I FL sized my brass it completely made sense. Some say you can turn brass with that slight bulge just above the junction that you get using the bushings...some say DONT DO IT...I chose to play it safe and go with the standard sizing die so I sized the entire neck (no bulge above junction) Then I used the expander, then turned the neck. I completely understand the process now, and think it is waaaayyyyy better to turn brand new brass VS turning previously fired brass...so that is what I will do from now on. If it were me doing it all over again knowing what I know now I would just turn from the beginning and you dont need the "standard FL die"...but its really not a big deal. By the way I have been getting super consistent neck tension and great groups...thanks for all the help everyone!