Help with load development

[leclairk]

I’m shooting a Savage Model 10 with a Criterion barrel in 6.5CM, 140gr Berger VLD’s, H4350, Hornady brass. Rounds are .03” off the lands because they have to fit my mag. I’m using a Labradar. Shooting prone off a bipod. These are my numbers and attached are photos of the group. Mostly curious what people would say is my next step. I assume I would move to seating depth. I don’t see a clear node with these numbers but I’m pretty new at this. My point of aim is center of diamond. Interesting my POI doesn’t shift much with the increase in velocities.
Thanks, Kevin

#1 40gr
2691
2694
2682
2677
2674
Avg 2684, ES 20, SD 8.7

#2 40.5gr
2718
2710
2730
2705
2719
Avg 2716, ES 25, SD 9.5

#3 41gr
2757
2762
2761
2756
2760
Avg 2759, ES 6, SD 2.5

#4 41.5gr
2772
2769
2780
2778
2780
Avg 2776, ES 11, SD 4.8

#5 42gr (radar dropped 1 shot)
2801
2793
2815
2804
Avg 2803, ES 23, SD 9.4

#6 42.5gr (radar dropped 2 shots)
2844
2866
2827
Avg 2846, ES 38, SD 19.2

#7 43gr
2865
2874
2852
2865
2876
Avg 2866, ES 24, SD 9.5

 

[leclairk]

Last picture

 

[paulT]

41g looks good, Try loading 3 shot groups of 41.0, 41.2, 41.4 to see if es and sd tightens further then pick the load that shoots tight with good es,sd and fine tune seating depth.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Play with seating around #3.

Regards
Rick

 

[miningshawn]

41g looks good, Try loading 3 shot groups of 41.0, 41.2, 41.4 to see if es and sd tightens further then pick the load that shoots tight with good es,sd and fine tune seating depth.

Exactly (except I still prefer 5 shot groups!). You have two possibilities you can explore, refinement of the original OCW followed by seating or vice versa.

Looking at those results I would continue with the OCW, loading groups for 40.8, 41.2, 41.4 (maybe even another round of 41 for confirmation). From there it is on to seating. Berger VLD,s have been tricky for me from the magazine. Sometimes they like .030, and I have seen them work as far back as .095 in more than one instance.

Since it costs exactly nothing I would call the Berger technical line (you will probably get Phil, sometimes even Walt picks up). They'll probably tell you to set back in .010 increments and focus in on the most promising grouping in .003 incriments. Or they may determine a better course of action.

FWIW my 260 with the 140 VLD liked .041 from the lands (CBTO of course). I had even better groups switching to the hybrids though.

Edit: Berger technical support 660-460-2802 EST

 

[338 dude]

Exactly (except I still prefer 5 shot groups!). You have two possibilities you can explore, refinement of the original OCW followed by seating or vice versa.

Looking at those results I would continue with the OCW, loading groups for 40.8, 41.2, 41.4 (maybe even another round of 41 for confirmation). From there it is on to seating. Berger VLD,s have been tricky for me from the magazine. Sometimes they like .030, and I have seen them work as far back as .095 in more than one instance.

Since it costs exactly nothing I would call the Berger technical line (you will probably get Phil, sometimes even Walt picks up). They'll probably tell you to set back in .010 increments and focus in on the most promising grouping in .003 incriments. Or they may determine a better course of action.

FWIW my 260 with the 140 VLD liked .041 from the lands (CBTO of course). I had even better groups switching to the hybrids though.

Edit: Berger technical support 660-460-2802 EST

As mentioned above try one load below 41 Grains and a few above in quarter grain increments then proceed with seating depth changes

 

[JimSC]

I would load a bunch with 41.2, seat the bullets at touch and head to the range with a seating die in a portable pres to fine tune the seating depth

 

[Tokay444]

40.8-41.2gr of H4350 behind 140 Berger Hybrids jumping .080” netted me 2725-2740fps, which seemed a little slow, but that was where the accuracy was for that barrel. It/I shot a .16moa one hole 5 shot group at 100 yards dead bullseye during load development, and repeated with many sub 1/4moa 5 shot groups out to 300 yards. One them was fixing to be a one hole group at 300, until planets fell out of alignment and the 5th impacted an inch away giving me a .33moa group. The four touching measured .05moa!!

 

[JFrank]

What’s wrong with #1 ??

 

[Tokay444]

What’s wrong with #1 ??

The ES is 20.

 

[Bc'z]

What’s wrong with #1

I agree, a fine seating adjustment is in order. Followed by fine powder tuning.

The ES is 20.

Targets dont read chronographs.
I honestly couldn't tell you what the ES/SD is on any of my tuned loads.
I do know how fast they are flying tho!

 

[Tokay444]

I agree, a fine seating adjustment is in order. Followed by fine powder tuning.

Targets dont read chronographs.
I honestly couldn't tell you what the ES/SD is on any of my tuned loads.
I do know how fast they are flying tho!

Then to answer the original question in a similar manner, 3 is better.

 

[Bc'z]

Then to answer the original question in a similar manner, 3 is better.

Lol! Yes, from a #'s standpoint.
Both 1&3 are roughly same size group.
Here's what I'm thinking.
Yes you can build a very accurate load at #3, I would pursue seating depth test here. But I cant help but notice the load starting to scatter with increased charge weights.
#1 looks to be a more precise load at this point.

 

[Tokay444]

3 is closer to what is a very common speed node for the creedmoor.

 

[leclairk]

Thanks for all the tips guys. This is why I asked. Wasn’t sure which route to go. Given there is nothing to do right now with Covid I may spend a little time with #1 and #3. To thoroughly confuse myself and because I can’t leave well enough alone, I may try the hybrids as well .

 

[hambone1971]

I don’t see a clear node with these numbers but I’m pretty new at this.

Kevin the reason you don't see any clear nodes is your checking loads spaced way to far apart. Point five (.5 gr) increments your missing nodes left and right. If you space your load testing point two grains apart that's (.2 gr) you will see all the nodes your missing. Nodes for this caliber are usually no wider than .2 to .3 gr. Checking at point five (.5gr) jumps would be more suited for a 338 lapua where your loading 90 to 100 grs of powder, even there I use .3gr jumps to find my 338 nodes. The 6,5CM nodes should be around 1.1 to 1.3 grains apart up and down the powder charges.
Also remember speed (high velocity) kills barrels fast.
Good luck to you. HB

 

[hambone1971]

Kevin, I might add, weigh those powder charges (each one) very accurately twice even.
Point two (.2 gr) isn't much here your dealing with. Dumping from a auto thrower is no
guarantee of accurate weights. I have them and use them to under throw then dribble up.
Finding a node and keeping a node going is a precise skillset. I'm talking accuracy nodes (one ragged hole) not velocity nodes. I'm assuming your after accuracy here. One perfect bullet at
a time here. Use a neck mandrel to keep the neck tension the same on them too. I favor (.002 ) light tensions. Good luck .. HB

 

[JFrank]

Lol! Yes, from a #'s standpoint.
Both 1&3 are roughly same size group.
Here's what I'm thinking.
Yes you can build a very accurate load at #3, I would pursue seating depth test here. But I cant help but notice the load starting to scatter with increased charge weights.
#1 looks to be a more precise load at this point.

Ditto

 

[leclairk]

What increments do people adjust seating depth and how far do you go?

 

[CaptainMal]

What distance were those targets shot?

That is a critical piece of information before making any judgment, especially on impact points. if only 100 yards there is near no answer to nodes and barrel timing. You need to be "out there" to see anything. ES is BS. Throw those darn Lab Radars' out and let the target be your guide.

The target tells all. Now how far away was it?