Neck turning question

[pg12340]

Hello all...I have been reloading for a while now but recently have been seeing real accuracy issues. This started to become more apparent when I noticed huge differences in "feel" while seating my bullets. I notice the harder it was to seat the bullet the longer my length to ogive was...and the length differences were huge! So, I decided to try turning my necks for the first time. I have mostly once or twice fire brass (hornady) in 6.5 CM which is the caliber I am working with. I have seen and read a little about the process with virgin brass...but can someone tell me the steps for turning fired brass. I also read that using redding type s dies with a bushing WAS NOT GOOD for sizing brass prior to turning...The problem is the Redding type s dies with bushings is all I have. Here is a list of what Ill be working with:
-Custom 6.5 CM
-Hornady brass (some new, mostly once or twice fired)
-21st century cutting lathe
-21st century expander/mandrels
-Redding type s dies with bushings

Will the Redding dies not work for this process? Any help in this matter is greatly appreciated.

 

[DJSBRS]

Most (Redding does not) bushing dies do not resize all the way down to the shoulder. In order to turn necks properly. you must size all the way to the shoulder then using the correct neck inside expanding mandrel that matches your selected neck turning tool.

DJ
DJ's Brass Service
205-461-4680

 

[pg12340]

Thank you for the replies...If the redding/bushing dies wont work what dies do you recommend? I guess what Im asking is what die will FL size, bump shoulder .003, and size neck all the way to junction? Will this have to be a two step process? One die to FL and one die to neck size? As far as the mandrel setup...I really like the "Porter" setup. I did however order an expaning mandrel body with a few different mandrels. Im not sure if my questions are making sense as I am a little lost in this process.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

You need a standard FL die to size the full portion of the neck, and to ideally set the shoulder bump consistently across your batch of cases. Most any brand of FL die should work, assuming we're not talking about something super-exotic.

It sounds like you've already got the 21st century expander mandrel die body & mandrel, so it should go like this:

1.) FL Size without the expander installed in the die.
2.) Mandrel expand up with with the 21st expander (while letting the case dwell a bit)
3.) Run it on the lathe.

You only need the standard/non bushing die because bushing dies don't size the full neck. Were you to use a bushing die prior to turning, you'd cut the necks thin at the neck/shoulder junction.

After you've turned the necks (or if you weren't going to neck turn at all), bushing dies are just fine.

 

[searcher]

On brass that has been fired a few times, I'd first be inclined to size it (using your S die), then anneal it, then run a mandrel in them to "iron out" the necks. I'd run a few extra pieces of brass though this process at the same time so you have a few practice pieces to use when getting your settings done. Set your turner up to where you are getting approximately 60% clean metal showing on the neck - yet DON'T cut into the shoulders as one would normally do with a die that sizes all the way down to the shoulder. Then try this on the batch of brass you want to turn and see how much coverage of clean metal you are getting. If you are using brass with thick necks, I'd adjust down to about 95%-100% clean metal. With a no-turn neck, there is usually nothing gained by taking off more material than once they are showing 95% to 100% clean metal.

 

[dnellans]

Agree with everyone above.

I'm like you and use redding type-s bushing dies. If I have to turn brass that has already been fired I size it first with a cheap hornady full length die with the expander removed, then use the appropriate expander mandrel, and then turn it on a 21st lathe.

There are a bunch of use cases to have a cheapo full length die in each caliber in addition to your normal bushing dies - not a bad investment per caliber IMHO.

 

[dnellans]

On brass that has been fired a few times, I'd first be inclined to size it (using your S die), then anneal it, then run a mandrel in them to "iron out" the necks. I'd run a few extra pieces of brass though this process at the same time so you have a few practice pieces to use when getting your settings done. Set your turner up to where you are getting approximately 60% clean metal showing on the neck - yet DON'T cut into the shoulders as one would normally do with a die that sizes all the way down to the shoulder. Then try this on the batch of brass you want to turn and see how much coverage of clean metal you are getting. If you are using brass with thick necks, I'd adjust down to about 95%-100% clean metal. With a no-turn neck, there is usually nothing gained by taking off more material than once they are showing 95% to 100% clean metal.

No! You can't use a bushing-style die before turning, there is 20thou or sometimes a lot more of unsized neck with bushing. As mentioned above, you'll cut this several to many thousands thinner than the rest of the neck which could cause significant problems.

 

[pg12340]

OK, I think Im starting to understand...I originally got the Redding type s dies because I never planned on turning necks and thought they would be the best way to control neck tension. Im gonna order a standard FL die...Any recommendations? Also, I do have an annealer...at what point in the process should I anneal? After FL sizing? Thank you for all the replies.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Anneal before sizing. Brand doesn't matter on the FL die.

 

[Straightshooter1]

OK, I think Im starting to understand...I originally got the Redding type s dies because I never planned on turning necks and thought they would be the best way to control neck tension. Im gonna order a standard FL die...Any recommendations? Also, I do have an annealer...at what point in the process should I anneal? After FL sizing? Thank you for all the replies.

Anneal
Clean
. . . then FL size

 

[pg12340]

OK...So it should go something like this: Fired brass

1. Anneal
2. Clean
3. FL size with standard die without expander
4. Mandrel expand
5. Trim to length?
6. Turn Necks
7. Chamfer/deburr case mouth
8. Prime
9. Charge
10. Seat bullet

Just trying to get my head wrapped around the process...am I missing any steps? So after the mandrel expand the neck is no longer sized at this point?

 

[jackieschmidt]

What? This is a ridiculous statement to make.

Here's a picture of about 600 7RSAUM cases where I have neck turned (for the 3rd time) using a Redding type S die

Re read what he said. If the fired neck has expanded to the diameter of the chamber it was fired in, the neck will remain that same size unless resized all the way to the shoulder Neck junction. When you take that fired case, and use a bushing die that does not size all the way down, then expand the sized portion with your expander, that lower portion that was never sized will be larger, and the cutter will cut it. Since the ID of that part is larger than the turning mandrel, the result will be a thinner neck at that particular spot.
How much thinner will be determined by how large the neck of the chamber it was fired is, minus the small amount of spring back.

 

[Willie]

Step 6.5 is reduce case neck with your bushing die to desired neck tension.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

OK...So it should go something like this: Fired brass

1. Anneal
2. Clean
3. FL size with standard die without expander
4. Mandrel expand
5. Trim to length?
6. Turn Necks
7. Chamfer/deburr case mouth
8. Prime
9. Charge
10. Seat bullet

Just trying to get my head wrapped around the process...am I missing any steps? So after the mandrel expand the neck is no longer sized at this point?

This will work fine.

 

[pg12340]

Got it...Im still waiting for some supplies to come in...and I just ordered a Redding FL sizing die (no bushing). I will update my progress...Thank You everyone!

 

[DJSBRS]

Re read what he said. If the fired neck has expanded to the diameter of the chamber it was fired in, the neck will remain that same size unless resized all the way to the shoulder Neck junction. When you take that fired case, and use a bushing die that does not size all the way down, then expand the sized portion with your expander, that lower portion that was never sized will be larger, and the cutter will cut it. Since the ID of that part is larger than the turning mandrel, the result will be a thinner neck at that particular spot.
How much thinner will be determined by how large the neck of the chamber it was fired is, minus the small amount of spring back.

Exactly!

DJ

 

[jackieschmidt]

Exactly!

DJ

I guess Joe re read the post.

 

[DJSBRS]

I guess Joe re read the post.

It appears so.
Understanding the cause and effect is difficult when there are so many scenarios when reloading fired brass in SAAMI chambers versus tight neck chambers.

ie, I know of a person that ordered tapered necks in his reamers. Go figure that out?

DJ

 

[BoydAllen]

It appears so.
Understanding the cause and effect is difficult when there are so many scenarios when reloading fired brass in SAAMI chambers versus tight neck chambers.

ie, I know of a person that ordered tapered necks in his reamers. Go figure that out?

DJ

Do you know why factory chambers generally have tapered necks?

 

[DJSBRS]

Do you know why factory chambers generally have tapered necks?

Yes, but not for tight neck custom BR barrels.