AR plinking load with W748, 8208xbr or CFE223???

[hoz53]

If the rounds will be used in an AR platform, a light crimp is a good idea. I crimp all of my rounds for semi-autos and revolvers. Bolt gun rounds are the only ones that do not get crimped.

My loads are intended to function reliably and be reasonably accurate in any mil-spec AR, into which they are loaded. Loading for high accuracy in the AR platform will usually mean long COAL which can cause feeding reliability issues.

If you want an AR for shooting one hole groups, build it solely for that purpose and please, do not rely upon it for defense.

When I am ready to load for extreme accuracy, it will be for a bolt gun.

its been said here and i guess i should have said it to-- i would crimp my ar15 loads if i was using them in combat and/or machine guns- anything i would use for self defense would be factory loads which would be crimped. you provide good points to help people decide how they want to handle it. rock on guitar man

 

[Rustytigwire]

Best starting point for me. Great resource.

You are being redirected...

This one is priceless. Good comparison of powders.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

 

[Websurfer]

Winchester 748 rocks in an AR. 7lbs will keep you busy for a long time. Consult factory load data for your bullet weight. Be safe, and have fun!

 

[hoz53]

Winchester 748 rocks in an AR. 7lbs will keep you busy for a long time. Consult factory load data for your bullet weight. Be safe, and have fun!

got some of that i will try

 

[Zero333]

I love 748 for plinking loads. I use it for 2223/556 & 308/762 loaded on my dillon 650. meaters perfectly and once I'm in a groove it doesn't fluctuate in charge weight.

My Win-748 loads...

223/556... 25.4 with 55 grainers and 26.6 with 52 grainers.

308/762... 42.5 gr with any 168 gr bullet.

I found w-748 to be more consistently accurate than other ball powders.

 

[hoz53]

I love 748 for plinking loads. I use it for 2223/556 & 308/762 loaded on my dillon 650. meaters perfectly and once I'm in a groove it doesn't fluctuate in charge weight.

My Win-748 loads...

223/556... 25.4 with 55 grainers and 26.6 with 52 grainers.

308/762... 42.5 gr with any 168 gr bullet.

I found w-748 to be more consistently accurate than other ball powders.

do you find temp sensitivity with 748 at all?

 

[searcher]

in an ar 15 alot of people use 004 to 006 neck tension

Since I didn't see anybody address

A question for those that don’t crimp... what interference fit do you use between the bullet and neck?

You will see a lot of differences from people as to how much neck tension it takes to hold a round in an AR/15 case without slippage. I firmly believe after many tens of thousands loaded and fired - and with many different bullet weights, coated and non-coated bullets, etc., it is not real straight forward. First, a coated bullet (like moly or HIBN) will take more tension than a bare bullet (usually .001" more, minimum). Short bullets which do not fill the entire neck of the brass (like a 32-grain .223 bullet) will require a bit more than a long bullet seated deep enough to make contact with the entire neck (like a 73-grain bullet). The larger the bullet diameter, typically a bit less tension can be used. For example, I use less tension in my 6.5 Grendel than I do in my .223. I have also found that in my .20 Practical, a coated bullet will slip a little no matter how much tension you place on it - even to the point your neck peels like a banana trying to get the bullet in. Funny - those will still shoot pretty good - but to completely stop slippage - I don't use moly in my .20 because you simply cant get enough effective tension on it without crimping - which I still won't do. For "most" .223's, shooting non-coated bullets weighing 32-50 grains, a bushing .005" smaller than a loaded round, measured at the neck closest to the mouth as can be measured will usually do fine. For a 55+ grain bullet, I'd go .004". If I were using coatings on the bullets, I'd go .001" smaller. Keep in mind that when one sizes down, say, .005", there will be around .001" of "spring-back, resulting in .004" of true tension. If you are loading with work-hardened brass that has had, say, 8 firings and not been annealed, you will encounter more spring back than .001" - and it can take days or even weeks to "open up" that .002" or so. So- there are a number of variables that will change the advice quite quickly - but oftentimes folks don't mention whether their brass was just annealed, using bare bullets, and of what weight - or caliber. Then - there are non-leaded bullets which are longer than those with lead cores. You can get by with less tension on a 50 Varmint Grenade than a 50 V-Max. I think you get the idea.

 

[hoz53]

Since I didn't see anybody address
You will see a lot of differences from people as to how much neck tension it takes to hold a round in an AR/15 case without slippage. I firmly believe after many tens of thousands loaded and fired - and with many different bullet weights, coated and non-coated bullets, etc., it is not real straight forward. First, a coated bullet (like moly or HIBN) will take more tension than a bare bullet (usually .001" more, minimum). Short bullets which do not fill the entire neck of the brass (like a 32-grain .223 bullet) will require a bit more than a long bullet seated deep enough to make contact with the entire neck (like a 73-grain bullet). The larger the bullet diameter, typically a bit less tension can be used. For example, I use less tension in my 6.5 Grendel than I do in my .223. I have also found that in my .20 Practical, a coated bullet will slip a little no matter how much tension you place on it - even to the point your neck peels like a banana trying to get the bullet in. Funny - those will still shoot pretty good - but to completely stop slippage - I don't use moly in my .20 because you simply cant get enough effective tension on it without crimping - which I still won't do. For "most" .223's, shooting non-coated bullets weighing 32-50 grains, a bushing .005" smaller than a loaded round, measured at the neck closest to the mouth as can be measured will usually do fine. For a 55+ grain bullet, I'd go .004". If I were using coatings on the bullets, I'd go .001" smaller. Keep in mind that when one sizes down, say, .005", there will be around .001" of "spring-back, resulting in .004" of true tension. If you are loading with work-hardened brass that has had, say, 8 firings and not been annealed, you will encounter more spring back than .001" - and it can take days or even weeks to "open up" that .002" or so. So- there are a number of variables that will change the advice quite quickly - but oftentimes folks don't mention whether their brass was just annealed, using bare bullets, and of what weight - or caliber. Then - there are non-leaded bullets which are longer than those with lead cores. You can get by with less tension on a 50 Varmint Grenade than a 50 V-Max. I think you get the idea.

that is alot of good info which makes alot of sense. my ar 15 useage is only 223 with 50 to 60 grain lead core copper jacket bullets so that is wat i was thinking about. i do anneal brass used in the ar 15 sometimes but i never neck turn it.

 

[Zero333]

do you find temp sensitivity with 748 at all?

I only use these loads out to 330 yards so I can't say for sure.... but...
I did not notice any shift in POI from cold bore to hot as hell bore. I've found some temp sensitive powders also have a shift from cold to hot bore. Those sensitive powders don't show much shift inside 200 yards, but at 300 meters I've definitely noticed big shift in POI with temp sensitive powders.

So as far as I can assume, W-748 is not bad at all.
At least the 748 lots made in the last several years.

 

[memilanuk]

in an ar 15 alot of people use 004 to 006 neck tension

There are also some that use 003. This is a common 'neck tension' used in 'cross the course'. I've yet to hear of anyone having their mag length bullet come out of the case. A factor could be that in this format, the most rounds in a mag are 8.
That said, many competitors use 005.

So... for those using higher neck tension (without crimping)... how are you accomplishing those numbers for your 223 AR loads?

F/L sizing die w/ expander? Most of mine have the expander plug/ball about 0.002" under nominal bullet diameter, or around 0.222, *maybe* 0.221.

Bushing die then a separate mandrel? Been down that road for "precision" loads, but seems a bit more than I would expect most people are doing for mag-length gas gun ammo.

F/L sizing die with no expander at all? I've seen necks like that in the 0.218-0.219 range... but TBH I'm not entirely comfortable with not running *something* thru the case mouth to make sure it's properly rounded out / not dented from its travels.

I'm not disagreeing with you; rather, I'm honestly curious how you go about it vs. what I've seen myself.

 

[hoz53]

I only use these loads out to 330 yards so I can't say for sure.... but...
I did not notice any shift in POI from cold bore to hot as hell bore. I've found some temp sensitive powders also have a shift from cold to hot bore. Those sensitive powders don't show much shift inside 200 yards, but at 300 meters I've definitely noticed big shift in POI with temp sensitive powders.

So as far as I can assume, W-748 is not bad at all.
At least the 748 lots made in the last several years.

Thanks for that info

 

[jelenko]

So... for those using higher neck tension (without crimping)... how are you accomplishing those numbers for your 223 AR loads?

F/L sizing die w/ expander? Most of mine have the expander plug/ball about 0.002" under nominal bullet diameter, or around 0.222, *maybe* 0.221.

Bushing die then a separate mandrel? Been down that road for "precision" loads, but seems a bit more than I would expect most people are doing for mag-length gas gun ammo.

F/L sizing die with no expander at all? I've seen necks like that in the 0.218-0.219 range... but TBH I'm not entirely comfortable with not running *something* thru the case mouth to make sure it's properly rounded out / not dented from its travels.

I'm not disagreeing with you; rather, I'm honestly curious how you go about it vs. what I've seen myself.

Good question.
My expander ball [Forster] has the brass come out ~ .219/.220 - probably depends on the brand of sizing die. I've heard some people reduce the OD of the expander.
At the same time, with a bushing die you'd have control over the ID of the mouth - to the extent that the wall thickness is uniform.

 

[searcher]

F/L sizing die w/ expander? Most of mine have the expander plug/ball about 0.002" under nominal bullet diameter, or around 0.222, *maybe* 0.221.

It is necessary to either use an expander ball or a mandrel to get necks "trued" of dings resulting from extraction. The problem with most dies in getting your tension where you want it is due to the expander ball being too large in diameter. An example is running your case up into a sizing die with a particular bushing. Then, as the case is pulled out on the upstroke of your press handle, the expander ball opens the case back up to the size (approximately) of the expander ball. Say that is not enough tension - so one puts in a bushing .002" smaller and repeats. Since you still have that big expander ball being the last thing to go through that neck as the case is extracted from the die again - the effect of the smaller bushing is either minimal or nil. So - to remedy this - the cases can be sized without the expander ball and necks run through with a mandrel as a separate operation - OR - one can remove the entire de-capping assembly from the die, chuck it into a drill press or into a drill, and apply a fine carbide file to the expander button while spinning to remove .002" or so in diameter - and keep removing material until the expander ball will slide into your sized neck with very slight friction. This allows dents to be removed and neck straightened, all while allowing your sizing bushing to give you the sizing you want. Many people have really bad experiences trying to get proper neck tension without giving thought to the problem being that expander ball. Hope this helps.

 

[memilanuk]

My usual approach - for a bolt gun, before expander mandrels were as popular for regular sizing operations - was to use a Redding f/L bushing die, throw away the stock expander plug, and get one of their floating carbide expander balls for the decapping stem. I'd size the bushing so that the ball just lightly 'kissed' the mouth on the way out; that way the neck didn't get sized down excessively, and the ball didn't drag excessively on the way back thru.

Worked pretty damn well, actually. I'm honestly not sure using expander mandrels does a better job, other than they do allow some more flexibility as far as size, and they work with any brand die (currently have my 308 FTR setup using a honed Forster F/L NM die, and a Sinclair .306 turning mandrel for expansion).

But that's the precision bolt gun setup, not my mag-fed gas-gun setup...
at least not yet. I have *a* way to get there from here, using the bushing die and mandrels in a Ken Porter die... but I'm guessing that's not the 'normal' approach for this application.

 

[JB10]

I use 748 in 2 bolt guns. Both 50gr bullets but different brands. One load is 26.5gr charge, other is 27.5gr charge. I have shot the 26.5 in an AR with no pressure signs. There is still room but not pushing things for coyotes.