What is Best Way to Lower ES and SD?

[Ccrider]

The more you do it, the more you learn. As forum boss said, +40 is high. I have found that neck tension is usually the problem if my es goes up and often it is one or two pieces of brass out of sync. Try separating your brass in to groups based on speed. The. Shoot those groups together. If it is the brass rather than your prep, this will bring your es down.

I cull the outliers if they hit outside twice. Mark them first, chunk them second. Also, I don’t count the shots that it takes for the barrel to settle down. Sometimes it’s one or two, sometimes as many as 4.

 

[dgeesaman]

Forum Boss: He says he is using a Labradar, which should be very accurate if he has it set up right.

He said he used one for the first time. For many of us, that means a borrowed unit. Hopefully it means he owns it and these are his first results.

I’m saying to stick with the LabRadar or another higher end chronograph. Otherwise you’ll chase your tail mistaking ES from chronograph error.

 

[kiwijohn]

Is the 15" group vertical or horizontal or both.? Are you shooting in the heat ? Is the mirage making you aim to a different point, is the wind drift consistent.
If the ES is this high and you appear to be doing all the right reloading tips/ techniques maybe try another powder?

 

[918v]

Brass is once or twice fired Peterson,Fed 210,H 4350,Auto trickler V3,necks mandrel sized 115 DTAC.

Tom

Sell the autotrickler, get a BR-30, work up a new load using the micrometer to make volume adjustments, tweak the coal. Go by volume, not weight.

 

[Hohn]

If you find a Sure-fire way to minimize it, let me know.

My .223 loads have frankly been terrible by SD and ES. We shoot the silver mountain electronic targets that give you impact speed. The first experience on those targets was a 200-14x at 300y, but the SD was like 40 FPS. I was new to loading and I have no chronograph. I’ve seen as bad as 60fps SD per the SMTs.

With a borrowed chrono, I’m seeing SDs in the 40s with wolf brass (pre primed), 23.0 of AR comp and 80 ELDs. I can feel the neck tension is all over the place when seating.

Then we have the case of my 6.5. Peterson SRP, RL26. Fireform loads are holding 12 SD. Super consistent seating force is noticeable.

From what I can tell with just 2 years of loading experience:
- brass consistency matters a lot
- a fuller case seems more consistent than one with lots of space.
- ball powders suck for ES/SD.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

Brass is once or twice fired Peterson,Fed 210,H 4350,Auto trickler V3,necks mandrel sized 115 DTAC.

Tom

I hate to say this but I've noticed the biggest difference in switching powders. Then primers next. Along with neck tension. But u can even go as far as primer seating pressure making a difference. That's if ur really wanting to pick fly $hit out of the pepper.

 

[ormandj]

Sell the autotrickler, get a BR-30, work up a new load using the micrometer to make volume adjustments, tweak the coal. Go by volume, not weight.

I disagree with this. Powder weight is a better target, as volume is not consistent depending on packing density and kernel types. The FX120 will get you within a single kernel once setup properly, which is plenty accurate. Don't worry about cutting kernels.

 

[918v]

I disagree with this. Powder weight is a better target, as volume is not consistent depending on packing density and kernel types. The FX120 will get you within a single kernel once setup properly, which is plenty accurate. Don't worry about cutting kernels.

FORUM Boss: I do not know a single successful long range shooter who throws charges by volume. All weigh charges very precisely. Some of the championship level guys are seeing 7-9 fps ES for five shots with .284 Win.i believe this poster 918V's advice is misinformed and should not be followed. Weigh your charges for 300 yards and beyond.

918V: Thrown volume is consistent. The thrown weight isn’t consistent. Consistent weight does not automatically translate into consistent velocity.

 

[Ccrider]

Thrown volume is consistent. The thrown weight isn’t consistent. Consistent weight does not automatically translate into consistent velocity.

Where is the research that proves this out? I want to read it. Thanks.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Your ES is on the high side but that not why your groups are that size. Work on tuning the rifle, leave the chrony at home for now. I think once you find a load that shoots, your ES will be half what it is now. Chase groups, the es will fall where it does.

 

[gman47564]

i agree with alex... chase the groups and not the es and sd... get the groups small and the sd will fall in place usually... consistent neck tension is critical in my opinion... another thing ..using powder that gives you a 90 to 95% case fill will also help.... good luck...

 

[Gato]

Everything matters to get single digit SDs. Good barrel, good components, and good reloading equipment. From there it's making sure your equipment is set up correctly and your chronograph is reliable. The other aspect is consistency in reloading, case prep, sizing, bullet seating, etc.. You'll have to measure a lot to make sure your equipment is producing consistent results. I don't think you need very expensive equipment to get the single digit SD results. I use a Frankford Intellidropper and RCBS Chargemaster Lite for my powder dispensing. They are accurate to a .10 grain. That's totally acceptable for most practical shooting. My average SD of 15 groups (most are 5 shot groups) over a 4-month period is 8.1, that's better than I can perform and better than I need. I attribute it to a great barrel and consistency in my reloading process.

 

[ormandj]

Thrown volume is consistent. The thrown weight isn’t consistent. Consistent weight does not automatically translate into consistent velocity.

What are you talking about? Powder kernels do not pack evenly, especially extruded. Just because the powder kernels are in the same sized container does NOT mean the load will be consistent; let me be clear, when I reference consistency, I mean velocity and low ES/SDs. If you use a long drop tube, for example, you're going to pack a lot more total quantity of gunpowder in the same "volume" of a case. People have been reloading for decades upon decades and powder weight is absolutely the way to ensure consistently low ES/SD, not volume.

Especially with things like stick powders thrown by volume, you're going to have significant swings in velocity as your weight (and thus total stored chemical energy) will vary significantly enough to matter. There is no serious shooter I've ever met, anywhere, that would tell you volume-based metering is better than weight-based for consistently low ES/SD.

 

[Scott Harris]

I'll tag onto Harris' great list of steps and progression. Wherever you are currently in the process of reloading, only change ONE thing at a time and fully test it before you move onto the next tweak in your process.

If more people did this, the number of precision reloading steps would be reduced quite a bit.

 

[Homerange]

He said he used one for the first time. For many of us, that means a borrowed unit. Hopefully it means he owns it and these are his first results.

I’m saying to stick with the LabRadar or another higher end chronograph. Otherwise you’ll chase your tail mistaking ES from chronograph error.

Yeah well while everyone else is giving their 2c worth I'll give you mine.
A $100 Chrony gives me 6fps ES on a 150gr 308 hunting load and has proven to me you don't need to spend $$$ on a chronograph to get dependable results.
We put 2 of these cheap Chrony's in line and got consistent readings of just a few fps error between them both.
Seeing is believing.

 

[bozo699]

You will tune your es/sd with ignition!.... primers, powder and neck tension. Use an appropriate primer for the powder you chose, chose appropriate powder for case and bullet. Tune group size with seating depth. Your using a good bullet and powder ,I have some Peterson in order but have never used it,.... assuming you have good brass with the same firings I would try different primers and adjust load, I believe I used 215m primers in my xc but I can’t remember I have it wrote down just not in loading rm. what is your loaded neck size?.... I would use at least .002 to start with, I think your there but not certain and go up from there. Use a nylon brush lightly on inside necks same amount on each piece. Do not clean the carbon out of your necks and use a K&M or 21st century arbor press and sort by seating pressure and your numbers will drop otherwise do as Alex said and forget you chronograph and tune your groups at 600 or 1000 in good light no wind.
Wayne

 

[9146gt]

If more people did this, the number of precision reloading steps would be reduced quite a bit.

I have about 70 rounds loaded,20 that have been shot 7 times , flame annealed and 50 that have been shot once or twice in a mixed batch.
Sounds like the best plan is to tune this load then continue with that info using the next batch of 115 DTAC's that have the nose ring.
Thanks
Tom

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have about 70 rounds loaded,20 that have been shot 7 times , flame annealed and 50 that have been shot once or twice in a mixed batch.
Sounds like the best plan is to tune this load then continue with that info using the next batch of 115 DTAC's that have the nose ring.
Thanks
Tom

You may try another bullet as well. I never got good chrono numbers with sierra bullets unsorted

 

[JEFFPPC]

You may try another bullet as well. I never got good chrono numbers with sierra bullets unsorted

Who shots unsorted bullets at 1000, no one I know who is competitive? I only shoot a little at 1000 but do fine with the new tipped Sierras which measure better then some handmade bullets I have checked. As for primers, I never in my life used Fed 205s until last year. I shot every primer I could get my hands on chasing ES with 2 6 BRXs and 1 6PPC. All were in the teens. All three went too low single digits with 205m which were the last thing I tried. Surprised me but I don't think the Lab Radar lies.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Who shots unsorted bullets at 1000, no one I know who is competitive? I only shoot a little at 1000 but do fine with the new tipped Sierras which measure better then some handmade bullets I have checked. As for primers, I never in my life used Fed 205s until last year. I shot every primer I could get my hands on chasing ES with 2 6 BRXs and 1 6PPC. All were in the teens. All three went too low single digits with 205m which were the last thing I tried. Surprised me but I don't think the Lab Radar lies.

He never said he sorted them which is why i suggested it