Concerning the "Carpet Rule" and CIHPRS matches

[Warren Dean]

don't have the right to an opinion,,then work together,,OH,,be quite and do as I say.

You sound like a teenager with that comment...... If you don't shoot F-T/R, quit interrupting with totally irrelevant drivel. It is just plain rude.

This discussion is for the shooters of the discipline to work out and discuss. Like Andy said, you don't often, if ever, hear an F-T/R shooter opining about F-Open or Benchrest.

Is that so hard to understand?

 

[dannyjbiggs]

You sound like a teenager with that comment...... If you don't shoot F-T/R, quit interrupting with totally irrelevant drivel. It is just plain rude.

This discussion is for the shooters of the discipline to work out and discuss. Like Andy said, you don't often, if ever, hear an F-T/R shooter opining about F-Open or Benchrest.

Is that so hard to understand?

Not really...F-Open and BR are just too hard a concept for many F-TR shooters to comprehend.

Dan

 

[davidjoe]

Only TR shooters to discuss and work out? Do you want the Rules Committee to chime in here next in and tell everyone to save their breath?

 

[XTR]

Not really...F-Open and BR are just too hard a concept for many F-TR shooters to comprehend.

Dan

Can I be offended? because I may resemble that remark

 

[MikeMcCasland]

TR Shooter here, and not trying to be a 'trouble maker', or 'stir the pot'.

How do we engage with the process?

If we're going to change, that's fine; the only thing constant in this world is change.

If you distill this down to its core, I think the primary complaint about the current rule is that it's poorly written, ambiguous, and subject to perpetual 'innovation'. Personal beliefs aside, that all fairly easy to understand. Why they're changing it, who prompted the change, and who's driving the change doesn't really matter; I get the distinct feeling something is going through regardless.

What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that the new rule is seemingly no better in terms of ambiguity, or interpretation/enforcement (objectively, it's probably a little worse). When I try to rationalize the new rule, it also doesn't align with what I see others (those that I perceive are part of the 'in-crowd') saying is legal for use.

The side-to-side movement clause and the wide spread use of narrow ski-feet in our division don't seem to align, unless you're shooting off or derlin plastic or a cutting board. Yet in other threads/FB discussions/text messages, the examples of a compliant setup being put forward are SEB feet (with tracks milled into them) resting on low pile carpet, on a joy-pad. If we're really being honest, that setup is going to track much easier fore/aft than it is laterally (that setup doesn't bother me, but let's be real, it doesn't align with the rule proposal)

I don't really care what the objective of the new rule is, but I do think it needs to be written in a way that either defines what is legal/illegal via in-depth technical detail (very few have interpretive arguments with a weight limit), or describes it in such a way to severely limit ambiguity (there is little ambiguity between what constitutes the geometric shapes of squares or circles).

This goes well beyond the 2020 Nationals; the MD can do whatever they want, it's their tournament. It's about the broader impact to all the smaller clubs that adhere to NRA HP rules. (i.e. am I going to drive 5-hours to a club match only to be told my setup that works at my home range is non-compliant?)

It also has down-stream implications. Not that I'll make the protest, but how will the new VV F-Class points series account for matches where MDs are allowing 'leagcy' FTR setups? I'm sure there are other interesting challenges.

That said, what I have seen posted from someone who (I assume) helped draft this rule is "If you don't like it, engage positively with the process". I have significant professional experience drafting, implementing, and enforcing process/standards with regards to very technical topics; I'd like to engage.

Although I admittedly have little hope of any suggestions from an FTR nobody being taken into consideration, I'm quite happy to 'Andy Dufresne' the rules committee until my prison library gets funded.

I'd just like to understand how that's done.

Anyone know? It's not clearly called out in the HP rule book.

Edit: Grammar/Structure.

 

[flintcreek6412]

This discussion is for the shooters of the discipline to work out and discuss. Like Andy said, you don't often, if ever, hear an F-T/R shooter opining about F-Open or Benchrest.

Is that so hard to understand?

Something to consider.......trust me I've given this a lot of thought.

Would it be so terrible to have non TR shooters look at the rules. Heck, even a committee of non F-class people to look at F class rule changes? Consider that TR shooters by their nature can have a vested interest in rules interpretations. Some invest money in equipment that might be questioned, some really like the high scores that have become the norm lately, some are motivated by team interest and some are motivated by sponsors, etc. It's very hard to weed out self serving interests when we are right in the middle of it.

Consider the fact that most police departments have civilian commissions to interpret rules violations. They don't rely completely upon themselves for enforcement because history has taught us this doesn't work.

Would it be wise for building codes to be created by builders that have an interest in cost, speed and ultimately profit margin? States that are run by builders have terrible codes and amendments that only serve builders and not consumers.

These are just a couple of examples but it exists almost everywhere. People policing themselves rarely works. You can even look at golf that is supposed to be the epitome of self policing. If it wasn't for the dozens of high resolution cameras the pros wouldn't call penalties on themselves and the amateurs very rarely call penalties on themselves. It's simply human nature. Some of the penalties are brutal.

From my experience, those that are offended by being scrutinized usually have something to hide. Those that are open to conversation and sometimes criticism are most interested in promotion of the sport. That doesn't mean you can't defend your position but you better do it with facts and not emotions. And if you choose to put yourself in a leadership position....you damn well better have thick skin.

Oh....and I'm an F-T/R shooter so I'm allowed to comment.

 

[davidjoe]

^ Mike, right on for engaging the process. I don’t think a person’s equipment should be manually manipulated. This isn’t livestock judging. All open and TR rules that rely on how equipment feels to one person on one day I could live without. Word them in a way that does not rely on feeling them.

 

[GSPV]

...and we wonder why shooting sports are losing people...

 

[davidjoe]

...and we wonder why shooting sports are losing people...

Which shooting sports are those? There’s more participation in this one than ranges can handle.

 

[okie]

make everyone shoot off of the same surface and same feet and or bipod....better yet give everyone a mil. issue rutsack packed exactly the same and shoot off of that.

 

[MattPeetz]

make everyone shoot off of the same surface and same feet and or bipod....better yet give everyone a mil. issue rutsack packed exactly the same and shoot off of that.

Be the trend setter or are those just words and you will keep shooting off the same bipods everyone else is using?

 

[okie]

Be the trend setter or are those just words and you will keep shooting off the same bipods everyone else is using?

I do not have a dog in the hunt. just suggestions. i prefer truck window/tractor tire rests myself

 

[LVLAaron]

How to solve the problem at hand.

Rule clarification: Carpet allowed.

Done.

 

[Jdne5b]

How to solve the problem at hand.

Rule clarification: Carpet allowed.

Done.

It already says that. But some people don't like the carpet that shooters chose to use for at least the last 6 years. Now it's suddenly worthy of a MD Bulletin and rule change.

 

[okie]

How to solve the problem at hand.

Rule clarification: Carpet allowed.

Done.

What KIND of carpet??? lol

 

[BronzeArcher]

Be the trend setter or are those just words and you will keep shooting off the same bipods everyone else is using?

Most of my students and I are still shooting off of Harris bi-pods. We drop a lot more points due to wind reading errors than we drop to not playing bi-pod games. Most other points are dropped due to velocity variation causing too much vertical at 1000 yards.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Not really...F-Open and BR are just too hard a concept for many F-TR shooters to comprehend.

Dan

What we don't comprehend is that monstrosity in the front that looks like it should be part of the space shuttle or a Cyberdyne Sytems T-801 Terminator.


BTW - this is an open shooting forum. Everyone is free to share their input, regardless of whether they shoot in F-TR.

 

[fyrewall]

Every day presents an aggravation or restriction - this is why I am a casual shooter. If I could afford a gyroscopic rifle rest I would cheerfully use it.

 

[Tarmacshooter]

How to solve the problem at hand.

Rule clarification: Carpet allowed.

Done.

Must be fresh and no tracks. Use a penny like they used to with tires!

 

[D-4297]

Something to consider.......trust me I've given this a lot of thought.

Would it be so terrible to have non TR shooters look at the rules. Heck, even a committee of non F-class people to look at F class rule changes? Consider that TR shooters by their nature can have a vested interest in rules interpretations. Some invest money in equipment that might be questioned, some really like the high scores that have become the norm lately, some are motivated by team interest and some are motivated by sponsors, etc. It's very hard to weed out self serving interests when we are right in the middle of it.

Consider the fact that most police departments have civilian commissions to interpret rules violations. They don't rely completely upon themselves for enforcement because history has taught us this doesn't work.

Would it be wise for building codes to be created by builders that have an interest in cost, speed and ultimately profit margin? States that are run by builders have terrible codes and amendments that only serve builders and not consumers.

These are just a couple of examples but it exists almost everywhere. People policing themselves rarely works. You can even look at golf that is supposed to be the epitome of self policing. If it wasn't for the dozens of high resolution cameras the pros wouldn't call penalties on themselves and the amateurs very rarely call penalties on themselves. It's simply human nature. Some of the penalties are brutal.

From my experience, those that are offended by being scrutinized usually have something to hide. Those that are open to conversation and sometimes criticism are most interested in promotion of the sport. That doesn't mean you can't defend your position but you better do it with facts and not emotions. And if you choose to put yourself in a leadership position....you damn well better have thick skin.

Oh....and I'm an F-T/R shooter so I'm allowed to comment.

To your point of Police Dept.'s having civilian review boards ; N.Y.C. , Chicago , Baltimore and other cities have had those , some for decades . And the only thing accomplished was to persecute many good officers for simply doing their job , by the book . And coming under scrutiny by the so-called "commission" , because every "White" Cop is a racist , even though the arresting officer was "Of Color" , in the majority of cases in these cities . But you really drew my ire with your inflammatory , derogatory , and insulting remark concerning Professional Golfers . As a former card-carrying Senior PGA member , you are definitely out of line with your insult to the character , honor , and honesty of a very large fraternity of Men , and Women who have worked for literally decades , to earn their place within the ranks of Professional Golfers . Are there exceptions ? Yes ! And you can count them on one hand . And have fingers left ! I have watched players call penalties on themselves , without the high-tech cameras rolling , and it cost some of them more , in one moment , than many here make in a year . There are violations of Omission , and there are violations of Commission . You should learn to tell them apart . BTW ? Have you ever broken 80 ? Or 90 ? Just askin ......!