Chasing the lands is stupid... What do you think?

[Hohn]

I don't think that measuring a different way means you aren't "chasing the lands". You're just starting from a jam reference instead of a "kiss the lands" reference.
The methodology is otherwise the same. And you'll STILL need to tweak the load if enough erosion causes it to go out of tune.

Now, if you want to talk instead about picking a jump that shoots well in a .010-.015 range and staves off retuning for a LONG time, that's another discussion.

 

[mike a]

I wonder how many people have a rifle that is accurate enough, equipment to support that rifle and the skill to operate it really know if there rifle is in tune or not. Just saying.

 

[Metal God]

If your jumping the bullet you would be correct,.... however the op is talking about being in the lands as with Dusty. You could shove the shoulder back .100 and it wouldn’t matter the bullet is still in the riflings. I do it all the time fireforming 6br cases to improved versions, usually about .100. So far quite a few of the people responding must not have paid very close attention to the op’s video!
Wayne

I'm not going to rewatch the video but thought he said something like " he starts with jam and backs off .020 or so" ? Does that mean he's still in the lands IDK but he also said he has rifles with significant throat erosion and he still only adjust .003 to .006 for the life of that erosion . Meaning my understanding of what was being said by the OP allows my original post to be reasonably accurate . Are there nuances in my post that could be debated as I'm doing to the OP , sure but that's what makes this fun haha .

 

[Devin Wiggett]

Thanks Eric, it will be interesting to try.
One thing I picked up on and correct me if I'm wrong, you mentioned after shooting the lands look different. I interpreted that to mean shape not necessarily a measurement.
Can you have a change in the shape of the lands that leads to a different measurement, but in fact really hasn't changed the relationship between the bullet and the lands.
I hope that's not to confusing!!

 

[Hoot]

Do I win something for reading the entire thread in one sitting? The sad fact of life is that While I understand the techniques and deviations that were batted about, I still suck at this and I've been chasing the dream for over 20 years! However, as a successful rimfire BR shooter, I wholeheartedly believe that victory belongs to the person who makes the best wind calls. That's not my issue. I truly suspect its my bench technique. Something that throwing money at hardware and painstaking time at careful reloading can't help. "It sucks to suck"

Hoot

 

[danny]

I have a feeling, if I were to watch that video, I'd REALLY want to chase the lands. I started buying neck sizer dies after watching the mentioned neck sizing video. It got me REALLY inspired to do it.

Danny

 

[TC260]

I'm not going to rewatch the video but thought he said something like " he starts with jam and backs loff .020 or so" ? Does that mean he's still in the lands IDK but he also said he has rifles with significant throat erosion and he still only adjust .003 to .006 for the life of that erosion

May still be in the lands, may not be. Depends on how far the bullet jams into the lands. Whether measuring from jam or touch, they're both just reference points.

The crux of the issue in my mind, and was brought up by several earlier, is whether or not it's necessary to maintain the same distance in relation to the lands throughout the barrel's life to keep it in tune. If a shooter feels they need to maintain the same distance from the lands as the barrel wears, then a touch based reference point would make more sense. If the shooter finds (as Erik is stating) that maintaining a specific distance from the rifling isn't necessary, then the touch measurement isn't necesaary. At least that's my take on it.

Erik might advance the bullet towards the lands over the barrel's life only in so much as it keeps tune. It isn't "chasing the lands" in the sense of taking continual touch measurements to maintain a specific gap. Again, that's how I'm interpreting his method, others may see it differently.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

As I have stated before, I'm a hunter first not a steel banger, benchrest or target hoarder. Always tried to find a wide powder node, mainly because I have entry level powder measuring/weighing equipment. I tend to follow Bergers recommendations for finding seating depth, mainly because I don't want bullet/rifling contact. However the idea to also find the seating depth node is something I'm going to address with my load development. I believe I have a 7saum sendero that I may have jumped to an early conclusion about seating depth because of a very good 100/300 yard performance from 1 group of test loads.

 

[KenOath]

Watch video. Let me know what you think.

Just curious have you changed your stance since saying you load them long so you can “chase the lands” in your TSRA 2018 Part 2 -EC Vlog 2 video at about 45-50 seconds in.. I get that you load em long for throat erosion so that you can seat longer if rifle steps outa tune.. Chasing the lands ..loading to a number..same thing!

 

[KenOath]

Rushty, you talking about this vid..

Yes..

 

[KenOath]

The root of the question is, does a bullet's relationship to it's first point of contact at the lands correlate to the the tune? I think Erik is making the point that in his experience it does not. In that case, maintaining that relationship of bullet to first point of touch is undesirable.

I think loading bullets long before hand so you can seat bullet further out as throat erosion occurs and changes barrel tune negatively is maintaining that relationship of the bullets original seating depth chosen to call it good and go shoot, which would have been determined after first finding touch.. Must be a correlation between them, can’t get one without the other..

 

[dgeesaman]

I think loading bullets long before hand so you can seat bullet further out as throat erosion occurs and changes barrel tune negatively is maintaining that relationship of the bullets original seating depth chosen to call it good and go shoot, which would have been determined after first finding touch.. Must be a correlation between them, can’t get one without the other..

Unfortunately, Erik did not prove this to be untrue or 'stupid', because he doesn't measure touch at all.

But you can begin to prove this, by following his tune method and recording touch length over the life of the barrel. Maybe the delta between 'in-tune' seating depth and touch length is consistent. Maybe it's not. I, for one, haven't seen actual data that shows it either way.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I like to have the extra data. I can get my touch point to the .001" every time, its quick and easy so I do it. If the gun stops shooting and the throat did not move, then Im going to look at some other reason why. If you dont know if the throat has worn or not then you are working blind and you may get lucky moving the seating depth or you way waste a day at the range. To each his own.
The point I was making was that if the correlation between the ogive of the bullet and the touch point do not relate to accuracy then there would be no point in knowing that distance or maintaining it. We all know seating depth is critical, but why exactly I do not know. Its not just exit timing.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I like to have the extra data. I can get my touch point to the .001" every time, its quick and easy so I do it. If the gun stops shooting and the throat did not move, then Im going to look at some other reason why. If you dont know if the throat has worn or not then you are working blind and you may get lucky moving the seating depth or you way waste a day at the range. To each his own.
The point I was making was that if the correlation between the ogive of the bullet and the touch point do not relate to accuracy then there would be no point in knowing that distance or maintaining it. We all know seating depth is critical, but why exactly I do not know. Its not just exit timing.

I think exit timing is an oversimplification of things that amount to that, like how pressure builds and how that relates to where the muzzle is when the bullet exits. Ultimately, I do think it's about timing but seating depth changes more than just distance to the muzzle, for example.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

All I know is that my 6.5x47 Lapua was giving me fits trying to find the sweet spot and an old timer told me to load to the book and try that first. Well the book COAL is a .077 jump in my rifle and to my surprise it fricken shoots lights out with that huge jump. Who wudda thought...

 

[Steve Donlon]

All I know is that my 6.5x47 Lapua was giving me fits trying to find the sweet spot and an old timer told me to load to the book and try that first. Well the book COAL is a .077 jump in my rifle and to my surprise it fricken shoots lights out with that huge jump. Who wudda thought...

That's right. Maybe different cartridges have different needs, but from what I have seen there is more than one way to skin a cat with the rounds I shoot. And reading wind will trump all of it at long range anyway.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

What a lot of people dont realize is that the lands dont just wear/erode evenly its at a progressive angle. Think of it as a funnel that gets longer, its still the same size funnel but now its longer and at a steeper angle.

 

[Fuj]

What a lot of people dont realize is that the lands dont just wear/erode evenly its at a progressive angle. Think of it as a funnel that gets longer, its still the same size funnel but now its longer and at a steeper angle.

And that angle is not necessarily even all around the bore,
and messing with the start of bullet engraving. I was shown
a cut away of a M-60 MG barrel that was taken out of rotation.
Now I know this is overkill for our normal purposes but, besides
the lands burned/worn away, there was also a cavern formed
3/4 of the way up the throat.

 

[bozo699]

I'm not going to rewatch the video but thought he said something like " he starts with jam and backs off .020 or so" ? Does that mean he's still in the lands IDK but he also said he has rifles with significant throat erosion and he still only adjust .003 to .006 for the life of that erosion . Meaning my understanding of what was being said by the OP allows my original post to be reasonably accurate . Are there nuances in my post that could be debated as I'm doing to the OP , sure but that's what makes this fun haha .

On a new barrel, hard jammed like he’s doing backing off .020 he’s still touching the lands.
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

On a new barrel, hard jammed like he’s doing backing off .020 he’s still touching the lands.
Wayne

This is why the Hornaday tool doesn’t work as advertised. I own one and use it some but if you think you have found your just touch point with it then strip your bolt and use Alex Wheelers method you will find the bolt won’t fall because your more than just touching!... I see merits to both Alex’s methods and Ericks! Bottom line there both winners they both are top shooters so I would say both there methods work! I shoot in Montana so I learned from Tom Mousel, the Anderson brothers and Alex Wheeler so I been using there methods but I’m not opposed to trying Ericks either.
Wayne