Varget Lots

[MikeMcCasland]

Hey Guys,

Quick question on your observations with Varget.

I've got multiple custom 308 barrels setup to shoot the 200.20X, and none of them seem to shoot well with Varget.

I'm in the node everyone wants to be in ~2615-2670 range), using the same brass (Palma), and primers (GM205Ms or CCI400s) and I just can't get Varget to shoot well. That said, it's a very popular powder in FTR, and lots of guys clearly have sucess with it.

I've shifted over to N150, which delivers exceptional results on every barrel I've used.

It dawned on me that I'd been using the same lot of Varget for the past ~1-2 years, and to test with all these barrels. Same lot, but multiple 8lb kegs.

Have any of yall seen any significant changes with lots of Varget as it pertains to accuracy? Did it ever not tune back in after you adjusted your charge weight to hit a certain velocity target? i.e. do some lots just not shoot as well regardless?

Crazy idea I know, but it seems incomprehensible to me that I can't get this powder to shoot well in at least one barrel. Clearly it's working for a lot of folks.

And yes...neck turning, AMP annealing, charges thrown on a 120i, been playing with weight sorting etc.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[ShootDots]

All Hodgdon powders can have some fairly large discrepancies from lot-to-lot, Varget and H4831 being the worst. However, once you have reached a point where you have shot far below a given node and well above it with a particular bullet, that tells you one of two things>>>>either YOUR barrel doesn't like the powder or doesn't like the bullet. PRIME EXAMPLE: I currently have one of my two .300WSMs which has a very "finicky" barrel. I spent about 600 rounds of components attempting to find an accurate load with 200-20Xs. I tried H4350, VV N160, RL-16 and H4831sc. All to no avail! I went from 2820 all that way to 3000f.p.s. with ZERO improvements along it's journey. I decided to give up and I ordered another barrel from Bruno's they had on order. Since it was not "due in" for awhile, I thought "no harm in going further" with the finicky barrel. I tried the Berger 215s with H4350 at a "lower node" and VOILA, the finicky barrel turned on! Since that time, it has proven to be an exceptionally accurate barrel and it is now a winning barrel! Why do some barrels prove to be a P.I.T.A. while others digest anything fed them? I have NO idea>>>>but it is a truism nonetheless! Same maker "Krieger", same barrel length and same reamer>>>why the finickiness? Who knows? By the way>>>no "knock" on Krieger>>>I might just be their biggest fan!

 

[MikeMcCasland]

All Hodgdon powders can have some fairly large discrepancies from lot-to-lot, Varget and H4831 being the worst. However, once you have reached a point where you have shot far below a given node and well above it with a particular bullet, that tells you one of two things>>>>either YOUR barrel doesn't like the powder or doesn't like the bullet. PRIME EXAMPLE: I currently have one of my two .300WSMs which has a very "finicky" barrel. I spent about 600 rounds of components attempting to find an accurate load with 200-20Xs. I tried H4350, VV N160, RL-16 and H4831sc. All to no avail! I went from 2820 all that way to 3000f.p.s. with ZERO improvements along it's journey. I decided to give up and I ordered another barrel from Bruno's they had on order. Since it was not "due in" for awhile, I thought "no harm in going further" with the finicky barrel. I tried the Berger 215s with H4350 at a "lower node" and VOILA, the finicky barrel turned on! Since that time, it has proven to be an exceptionally accurate barrel and it is now a winning barrel! Why do some barrels prove to be a P.I.T.A. while others digest anything fed them? I have NO idea>>>>but it is a truism nonetheless with barrels! Same maker "Krieger", same barrel length and same reamer>>>why the finickiness? Who knows? By the way>>>no "knock" on Krieger>>>I might just be their biggest fan!

The barrels love the 200.20Xs. They all hate Varget.

We're talking 3 Barts, 1 Kriger, & 1 Brux, all not shooting Varget, but shooting the 20x well.

Same reamer.

 

[ShootDots]

The barrels love the 200.20Xs. They all hate Varget.

We're talking 3 Barts, 1 Kriger, & 1 Brux, all not shooting Varget, but shooting the 20x well.

Same reamer.

Evidently, they like N150! In my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion, N150 is A LOT better powder than Varget anyhow!

 

[Jdne5b]

I heard grumblings at various matches last year that people weren't able to get a recent lot of Varget to shoot and had gone to Vit. I started with n140 on my current barrel so I haven't done any direct comparing recently. What you describe seems possible though.

 

[Ned Ludd]

In my hands, different Lots of Varget don't typically vary that much, perhaps 10 to 15 fps for a given charge weight. Accuracy between Lots tuned to the same velocity window is comparable. I have had one Lot of Varget some time in the past that was much farther out than that, but that hasn't been the norm.

I do have rifle that doesn't seem to care for the 200.20X bullet for reasons I don't understand. It has a 30" 5R barrel with 0.180 freebore just like my other 308 that shoots the 200.20Xs extremely well. I have tuned it in as best I can at very close to 2650 fps, with the 200.20Xs seated at .012" off the lands using Fed205 primers, which seems to work very well in my other setup, but this one doesn't shoot nearly as well, either tuned there, or elsewhere. Surprisingly, it shoots the 215s over Varget extremely well, so I am not inclined to believe the barrel is bad. It is possible that for reasons that may be difficult to every fully explain, your setup just isn't "happy" with the 200.20X and Varget. It sounds like you're happy with the N150 load, why not just stick with that and put fewer rounds through your barrel trying to tune it in with Varget if it doesn't want to shoot?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

In my hands, different Lots of Varget don't typically vary that much, perhaps 10 to 15 fps for a given charge weight. Accuracy between Lots tuned to the same velocity window is comparable. I have had one Lot of Varget some time in the past that was much farther out than that, but that hasn't been the norm.

I do have rifle that doesn't seem to care for the 200.20X bullet for reasons I don't understand. It has a 30" 5R barrel with 0.180 freebore just like my other 308 that shoots the 200.20Xs extremely well. I have tuned it in as best I can at very close to 2650 fps, with the 200.20Xs seated at .012" off the lands using Fed205 primers, which seems to work very well in my other setup, but this one doesn't shoot nearly as well, either tuned there, or elsewhere. Surprisingly, it shoots the 215s over Varget extremely well, so I am not inclined to believe the barrel is bad. It is possible that for reasons that may be difficult to every fully explain, your setup just isn't "happy" with the 200.20X and Varget. It sounds like you're happy with the N150 load, why not just stick with that and put fewer rounds through your barrel trying to tune it in with Varget if it doesn't want to shoot?

This isn't so much a quest to make Varget work. I'm very content with N150 for now; every barrel I have shoots it the best.

One of those random 'deep thoughts' I get while driving to/from the range.

 

[Ned Ludd]

This isn't so much a quest to make Varget work. I'm very content with N150 for now; every barrel I have shoots it the best.

One of those random 'deep thoughts' I get while driving to/from the range.

I have far too many of those, myself. They usually bring me nothing but trouble LOL.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I had one .308 Barrel that disliked Varget ,4320 it shot Dots.
Brux 10 twist on my Rifle shoots Varget very well ? ( Berger Bullets 185/200 )
I will add my Lots of Varget are from 2017/2018
Don

 

[BenPerfected]

My process is to mix all the Varget I have & stir it all together, now you have your own new lot of Varget. If you Mix (2) 8 lbs jugs + (or less) you can now mostly focus on the powder charge, bullets & SD.....and reading the wind.
Ben

 

[LVLAaron]

Hey Guys,

Quick question on your observations with Varget.

I've got multiple custom 308 barrels setup to shoot the 200.20X, and none of them seem to shoot well with Varget.

I'm in the node everyone wants to be in ~2615-2670 range), using the same brass (Palma), and primers (GM205Ms or CCI400s) and I just can't get Varget to shoot well. That said, it's a very popular powder in FTR, and lots of guys clearly have sucess with it.

I've shifted over to N150, which delivers exceptional results on every barrel I've used.

It dawned on me that I'd been using the same lot of Varget for the past ~1-2 years, and to test with all these barrels. Same lot, but multiple 8lb kegs.

Have any of yall seen any significant changes with lots of Varget as it pertains to accuracy? Did it ever not tune back in after you adjusted your charge weight to hit a certain velocity target? i.e. do some lots just not shoot as well regardless?

Crazy idea I know, but it seems incomprehensible to me that I can't get this powder to shoot well in at least one barrel. Clearly it's working for a lot of folks.

And yes...neck turning, AMP annealing, charges thrown on a 120i, been playing with weight sorting etc.

Thanks,
Mike

Do you have the lot numbers? I have an anecdotal experience but don't want to be a conspiracy theorist.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

#7138

 

[JEFFPPC]

Direct answer to your question......no.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The barrels love the 200.20Xs. They all hate Varget.

We're talking 3 Barts, 1 Kriger, & 1 Brux, all not shooting Varget, but shooting the 20x well.

Same reamer.

Mike - it may not be that your barrels "hate" Varget, but that you're not using the primer they want. A shooting friend had tested Varget to exhaustion with the 200.20Xs in a brand new rifle and was unable to get groups any better than 0.5 to 0.75 MOA. He was using Fed 205s, which have always worked well for me with Varget/200.20Xs. Just for kicks and giggles, he switched the best load he had come up with ("best" being a relative term"), except he used BR4 primers. Lo and behold, the 0.5 to 0.75 MOA groups shrunk to one ragged hole. I see you tried the 400s in addition to the 205s, but it is possible that trying another type of primer or two may generate the results you're after.

Over the years I have always had good luck with Fed205s, but I am becoming convinced over time that having several different primers available in quantity to test is a good approach. Of course, right now is not such a good time to purchase any additional brands of small rifle primers in quantity.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I guess ill be the odd one to say i dont think varget is the right powder for a 200gr in a 308. In that case capacity it needs anywhere from a 75gr to a 140gr bullet. Will it work? Sure it will. So will trailboss and h1000 but you never hear of those getting used either.

 

[Dub]

I seem to be the odd man out. I am having good results with Varget and the 200 20X. seems to me in a good node at 2640FPS in my 30" bbl rifle.

 

[Dub]

I am at 43 gr 20K off

 

[Down South]

I guess ill be the odd one to say i dont think varget is the right powder for a 200gr in a 308. In that case capacity it needs anywhere from a 75gr to a 140gr bullet. Will it work? Sure it will. So will trailboss and h1000 but you never hear of those getting used either.

I'll have to disagree with this. Varget and N150 are probably two of the best powders available for 200 gr bullets in .308

The majority of top FTR competitors are using these 2 powders with 200 gr bullets.

 

[Down South]

Hey Guys,

Quick question on your observations with Varget.

I've got multiple custom 308 barrels setup to shoot the 200.20X, and none of them seem to shoot well with Varget.

I'm in the node everyone wants to be in ~2615-2670 range), using the same brass (Palma), and primers (GM205Ms or CCI400s) and I just can't get Varget to shoot well. That said, it's a very popular powder in FTR, and lots of guys clearly have sucess with it.

I've shifted over to N150, which delivers exceptional results on every barrel I've used.

It dawned on me that I'd been using the same lot of Varget for the past ~1-2 years, and to test with all these barrels. Same lot, but multiple 8lb kegs.

Have any of yall seen any significant changes with lots of Varget as it pertains to accuracy? Did it ever not tune back in after you adjusted your charge weight to hit a certain velocity target? i.e. do some lots just not shoot as well regardless?

Crazy idea I know, but it seems incomprehensible to me that I can't get this powder to shoot well in at least one barrel. Clearly it's working for a lot of folks.

And yes...neck turning, AMP annealing, charges thrown on a 120i, been playing with weight sorting etc.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike, not sure why you can't get Varget to shoot well in multiple barrels? Bad lot of Varget possibly. Every barrel I've ever tried Varget in has shot well. The load I shot last year at nationals was 44.3 N150 with 20X but I have a Varget load 43.9 in that same barrel that is every bit as accurate as the N150 load. Same node/speed using Fed 205M primer in Lapua Palma brass.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Mike, not sure why you can't get Varget to shoot well in multiple barrels? Bad lot of Varget possibly. Every barrel I've ever tried Varget in has shot well. The load I shot last year at nationals was 44.3 N150 with 20X but I have a Varget load 43.9 in that same barrel that is every bit as accurate as the N150 load. Same node/speed.

I blame the idiot responsible for my load dev.

I'm not worried though. The gun shoots with N150.