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Pin Gauge question

MikeMcCasland

Team Texas F-T/R
Hey Guys,

I've run into yet another bushing issue, and I'm getting a little tired of dealing with inconsistencies regarding how the bushing is marked vs. how much it's sizing.

For those of you running the pin gauges to control your interference fit, how much are yall sizing the brass down before expanding?



Thanks,
Mike
 
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Exactly what I was looking for; David hit the nail on the head with his response. Thank you!
Not quite: I bought an inside 3pt bore gauge recently and measured my sizing bushings. The results were surprising and disappointing.

I had read that some bushings have taper. I found taper in some cases but not all. I also found some that were simply not the size they said they were. Quality control was very poor for some. I’m sure in hindsight I could have seen this be carefully measuring sized brass with an outside mic.

David
 
Hey Guys,

I've run into yet another bushing issue, and I'm getting a little tired of dealing with inconsistencies regarding how the bushing is marked vs. how much it's sizing.

For those of you running the pin gauges to control your interference fit, how much are yall sizing the brass down before expanding?



Thanks,
Mike
Take a look at:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ion-with-gage-pin-die-from-porters-precision/

I own this collet holder with pin gages and very happy with the results.
 
I've run into yet another bushing issue, and I'm getting a little tired of dealing with inconsistencies regarding how the bushing is marked vs. how much it's sizing.

For those of you running the pin gauges to control your interference fit, how much are yall sizing the brass down before expanding?
I want my expander (21'st Century) to open the neck between 0.0005 and 0.001".

I moved away from the Redding bushings a while ago as I found the were inducing runout. I now use the Whidden bushings. If you have one that isn't true to the marking it is easy to open them up. So I prefer to buy slightly smaller and open them if necessary. I get less than half the runout with the Whidden bushings vs the Redding.
 
I want my expander (21'st Century) to open the neck between 0.0005 and 0.001".

I moved away from the Redding bushings a while ago as I found the were inducing runout. I now use the Whidden bushings. If you have one that isn't true to the marking it is easy to open them up. So I prefer to buy slightly smaller and open them if necessary. I get less than half the runout with the Whidden bushings vs the Redding.

I have been using the Reddings and to be honest, I never thought to check them until now. I always went by the neck dimension with a mic at it only matters what the end product is.

But now that I have read this, I need to double check them with pin gauges to see what they actually measure. Just need to find the set in storage.

Do the Whidden bushings work in the Redding dies?

For me, I under size about 0.002" and then expand with the pin gauge to the final.

I was using the Hornady bullet puller to hold the pin, but just recently got one of Porter's Precision dies. Really nice unit. I went with the long so that I could do my .308 Win and .30-06 cases.
 
Whidden, Redding, Wilson, Rcbs and i believe Hornady bushings all interchange .

I cant guarantee the hornady ones do but i think they do.
 
Yes, Hornady will take Hornady, Whidden, Redding, Wilson, RCBS bushings.
My Dasher die is a custom Hornady, and I run Redding bushings.
Harrels dies uses these also.
 
Eh, decided to go with the 21st 'caliber specific' expander mandrels.

BTW - How are you guys opening up bushings?

To give a little more info....

I'm dealing with a 6mm that has necks turned to .012". Probably .0002 variation in the necks...they're as consistent as I can get them.

Brass is Alpha brass, AMP annealed each firing.

I'm using Whidden bushings in a Whidden bushing FL sizer, and I had really wanted to avoid using any type of expander....just turn things consistent and use a bushing (yes, I know necks change thickness over time).

The problem I'm having is I've got a .269 - .264 bushing, and only two of them are sizing to within .0005 of what's marked on it, and the problem is those two are too big for the brass thickness I'm running.

.269 will size to .2695
.268 will size .2675
.267 will size to .2655
.266 will size to .2635
.265 will size to .264
.264 will size to .264

I took a piece of brass sized down to .264, and ran it through my turning mandrel and it up to .265.

I'm going to run a test on all this brass to see what 'interference fit' is best, but I really want these necks to sit a .266-.2665 and I just can't hit that with any of these bushings. That should put me at just about .001 tension. It's driving me nuts that I can't hit it.

Stuff like this drives me insane.

Looked into the P3 die (was originally going this direction) but that whole deal with the collet needing to be oriented in a special way was a turn off, as well as the price for the die with the gauge pins.

Appreciate the replies.
 
I found the amount of springback changes based on how much we try to move the brass. It needs to be moved enough to change (overcome elasticity), and then it will spring back some.
Agree with your findings - a .001 change in bushing does not always equal a .001 change in the brass. Which is why the 21s Century or Porters mandrel dies are so nice.
Pin gauges to measure neck ID after each op works great to dial in what gives the desired results. I have pin gauges from .240-.243. I got them from McMaster Carr, but Suncoast Tools listed above is mentioned often here.
And I have 21st Century expanders from .2415-.2435
Here's what I do.
6 BR Ackley, Lapua brass, neck turned to .0113 walls
.264 Whidden bushing gives me neck ID slightly less than .240 (I don't have pin gauges below .240)
21st Century .2425 expander gives neck ID .2415 to .24175
Berger 109 measure .2435 just above the boat tail, so I'm getting ~ .002 tension.
I tried a .265 bushing but that gave a neck ID larger than my target ID. (I was hoping it would be .2405-.2410, but didn't -- must be that spring back/elasticity)
Do you have pin gauges in .242-.243 range to measure neck ID? That's the best way measure the .001 tension you're shooting for. Then experiment with bushings and pins to get that result.
 
Unless you are measuring using the same piece of brass, or taking an average, you can’t rely on your finished neck widths measurements. Each piece of brass sizes differently, even if from the same batch and annealed with an Amp. Also, I have found that I have had to adjust my Amp setting to get the results I am looking for. Even then, judging by feel, some pieces of brass size differently. Additionally, brass sizes and responds to annealing differently the more time it is fired. Pin gauges will not solve this problem because some pieces spring back, and I believe out also, differently.

I finally decided to rely on what I see on paper and velocity to weed out the liberal pieces.;) I use pin gauges and think they have their place. I don’t think they are helpful if you don’t weed out the detractors.
 
Unless you are measuring using the same piece of brass, or taking an average, you can’t rely on your finished neck widths measurements. Each piece of brass sizes differently, even if from the same batch and annealed with an Amp. Also, I have found that I have had to adjust my Amp setting to get the results I am looking for. Even then, judging by feel, some pieces of brass size differently. Additionally, brass sizes and responds to annealing differently the more time it is fired. Pin gauges will not solve this problem because some pieces spring back, and I believe out also, differently.

I finally decided to rely on what I see on paper and velocity to weed out the liberal pieces.;) I use pin gauges and think they have their place. I don’t think they are helpful if you don’t weed out the detractors.

Drano38 - Thanks for the response. Really appreciate the detail there, and I'm looking to do the same.

Ccrider - I was taking an average of 3 pieces sized. The motivation behind the analysis on the bushing is from what I see on target. Long story, but I'm reloading for a 6mmGT built off a Panda/Bartlein/60x golden eagle and having trouble consistently getting tighter than ~.4 MOA @ 215 yards. Meanwhile I can take my TR rifle or really any other gun I've got dialed and shoot tighter than that. So far I'm at 190 rounds through the gun, 4 powders, and 2 bullets.

I don't have any 6mm expirence, but generally my observations have led me to believe I should be able to expect significantly tighter groups than what I'm getting; not that I choose loads based on this, but my SDs are also higher than normal too. That led me down the path of looking at neck tension, as the gun seemed to shoot the best on virgin turned brass (i.e. off the .002 expander mandrel).

Generally speaking, I've found that lighter neck tension *usually* shoots better, and I knew the bushing was putting more than .001 on the brass due to feel when seating, but didn't think to go back and check the actual sizing amount until I just couldn't get the thing to shoot.

So here we are...measuring bushings, and ordering mandrels. :)

As far as next steps, I've sized 60 pieces of brass using each bushing (10 using .269, 10 using .268 etc.), and I've also sized a piece of brass down with a FL 6mm die, and opened it back up with a .262 expander mandrel.

I'm going to select my two best bullet/powder comobso so far, and load 5 of each for each bushing size.

I'll shoot them to see if that tells me anything about tension being a factor in this rifle not meeting accuracy expectations.
 
Ok Mike. Think you have a good process. I would just open up that .265 bushing until it was sizing where I wanted.
You can get there with the mandrels but having the correct bushing is a lots faster and one less step in the process. It would be nice to find carbide bushings that have been mic’d to spec. and step up .0005. I know someone use to make them because I have some from a Borden built .262 neck 6ppc.
 
It would be nice to find carbide bushings that have been mic’d to spec. and step up .0005. I know someone use to make them because I have some from a Borden built .262 neck 6ppc.
Benchrite carbide bushings fit the bill (if not the budget) and the two I own measured within .0001 of the marked size.

David
 
Ok. Don’t hold back. How much do they cost?
$55 and worth every penny once I trust my choice of size.

If you anneal regularly there isn’t a need for a wide range of sizes.

Im guessing Benchrite bushings are cut from carbide plate with an EDM.
 
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