I have a friend who asked me why his 9mm OAL and OALO are not consistent? Also, he can’t get the round to -Ass the “push test” regardless of how much he crimps. He is reloading 115 MG Hp...I mentioned making sure he had the right seater die but as I have not loaded pistol ammo in a year, I thought some of you would know the simple answer that evades him? (And me)
9mm pistol OAL inconsistent
- Thread starter Baer45
- Start date
You should not have to crimp 9mm loads at all, infact, you could be compromising your bullets by doing so, especially lead bullets.
9mm brass is unique, in that it has double tapered walls.
The key to loading is proper sizing, and Setting Up the Correct expander, for your bullet. This determines tension, not a crimp.
You will have to slug your bore, to determine the size(s) you'll need.
Check out NOE Expanders, and put your crimp die back in the box.
9mm brass is unique, in that it has double tapered walls.
The key to loading is proper sizing, and Setting Up the Correct expander, for your bullet. This determines tension, not a crimp.
You will have to slug your bore, to determine the size(s) you'll need.
Check out NOE Expanders, and put your crimp die back in the box.
9mm needs to be crimped just enough to un-bell it. No more.
Failing to plunk is almost always due to: bell not removed, COAL too long, or bullet oversized.
Failing to plunk is almost always due to: bell not removed, COAL too long, or bullet oversized.
^ I Agree 100% Ed, when using a standard expander.
With the noe expanders, i get no amount of belling to affect reliable feeding, and some of my barrels are eating oversized, coated lead bullets, which could otherwise be compromised, by using a factory expander and crimp die.
They are definitely worth a look, especially for the op's question.
A tighter crimp may just be a bandaid, if the expander is not properly matched to the bullet.
Typical 9's are sized from .355 to .358, and should match the bore and the Expander, to function clean and accurate. It is not a one size fits all.
With the noe expanders, i get no amount of belling to affect reliable feeding, and some of my barrels are eating oversized, coated lead bullets, which could otherwise be compromised, by using a factory expander and crimp die.
They are definitely worth a look, especially for the op's question.
A tighter crimp may just be a bandaid, if the expander is not properly matched to the bullet.
Typical 9's are sized from .355 to .358, and should match the bore and the Expander, to function clean and accurate. It is not a one size fits all.
Lee makes a "Under size" die that reduces the case diameter .002 to .003 more than a standard die.
This provides more bullet grip and a Lyman type "M" expander helps seat the bullet straight into the case.
Below a 9mm and the case is wasp waisted showing the increased bullet grip. Many competitive pistol shooters use a under size die because they use range pickup brass that has been fired many times. Meaning the well used brass becomes hard and springs back more when sized.
The case below has a slight taper crimp to streamline the case mouth for proper feeding. And has plenty of bullet grip to keep the bullet from moving.
Below the same cartridge before taper crimping showing the case mouth flair that needs to be "slightly" reduced. And you can see below that the straight edge is not laying parallel to the seated bullet.
Below the Lyman type "M" expander allows the bullet to be started straight into the case and only expands the case mouth approximately .001 larger than bullet diameter. And it works the case mouth less and the cases last longer before you get case mouth splits.
Bottom line, if the loaded cartridge fails the "push test" the expander may be too large or the case is not being reduced in diameter enough. And a taper crimp is not meant to increase bullet grip, it is used to close up the case mouth and streamline the case mouth for feeding.
This provides more bullet grip and a Lyman type "M" expander helps seat the bullet straight into the case.
Below a 9mm and the case is wasp waisted showing the increased bullet grip. Many competitive pistol shooters use a under size die because they use range pickup brass that has been fired many times. Meaning the well used brass becomes hard and springs back more when sized.
The case below has a slight taper crimp to streamline the case mouth for proper feeding. And has plenty of bullet grip to keep the bullet from moving.
Below the same cartridge before taper crimping showing the case mouth flair that needs to be "slightly" reduced. And you can see below that the straight edge is not laying parallel to the seated bullet.
Below the Lyman type "M" expander allows the bullet to be started straight into the case and only expands the case mouth approximately .001 larger than bullet diameter. And it works the case mouth less and the cases last longer before you get case mouth splits.
Bottom line, if the loaded cartridge fails the "push test" the expander may be too large or the case is not being reduced in diameter enough. And a taper crimp is not meant to increase bullet grip, it is used to close up the case mouth and streamline the case mouth for feeding.
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I don’t know about the “plunk/plink test but he push test where you take a newly loaded round and push the bullet end into the side of your bench moderately hard and then remeasure to confirm OAL. He is getting set back of the bullet when doing this meaning grip is not tight enough...
not quite true.
the "crimp" die is used to REMOVE the bell added so seating foes not tear the jacket nor the lead of a lead bullet.
never use a lee factory crimp die in lead or plated bullets.
9mm does not have a double taper, but sizing ties have no taper.
the "crimp" die is used to REMOVE the bell added so seating foes not tear the jacket nor the lead of a lead bullet.
never use a lee factory crimp die in lead or plated bullets.
9mm does not have a double taper, but sizing ties have no taper.
Without getting into a peein' match, it's All true...
A 9 has a unique case taper, and tapered thickness to it's brass, as do the dies. That's why they're more expensive, because of the full length Tapered carbide sizer, as opposed to just a carbide ring, in other handgun cartridges.
It is also why it's beneficial to sort 9mm brass, as the wall thickness, length, and internal volume, vary wildly, by brands.
Weather a bullet is over or undersized, it still benefits from the Correct Size expander plug, and not just pushing it through a universal trumpet, then squeezing it back shut.
If measured Properly, you do not need a flare or crimp, with a two stage noe, it will not cause any feed issues, and will in no way damage your bullet, but will protect the bullet from scraping or inadvertent resizing. That is why they offer so many sizes, with two different dimensions on each plug, and will make you any custom plugs you may need.
A 9 has a unique case taper, and tapered thickness to it's brass, as do the dies. That's why they're more expensive, because of the full length Tapered carbide sizer, as opposed to just a carbide ring, in other handgun cartridges.
It is also why it's beneficial to sort 9mm brass, as the wall thickness, length, and internal volume, vary wildly, by brands.
Weather a bullet is over or undersized, it still benefits from the Correct Size expander plug, and not just pushing it through a universal trumpet, then squeezing it back shut.
If measured Properly, you do not need a flare or crimp, with a two stage noe, it will not cause any feed issues, and will in no way damage your bullet, but will protect the bullet from scraping or inadvertent resizing. That is why they offer so many sizes, with two different dimensions on each plug, and will make you any custom plugs you may need.
maybe you can show me the double angles...in the straight lines of the spec ?
chamber and case drawing in the saami spec page 36 of the pistol specs
chamber and case drawing in the saami spec page 36 of the pistol specs
Ok, here we go, and I respectfully requested no peeing match! LOL
By full length carbide, I didn't mean full length of the die, but rather a carbide sleeve, the approximate full "Sized Length" of the Brass, just above the web, to the mouth.
A Lee has a half inch insert sleeve, which is tapered, (and the approximate full length of the brass), and a Redding can have dual sized rings, which essentially reach the same end result, of resizing the brass to the saami specs of .3910 above the web, down to .3800 at the mouth, as shown on page# 36.
The other taper can easily be verified with a ball mic, measuring wall thickness, from the web to the mouth, and this will vary by the brass manufacturer, but they will all taper thinner, towards the mouth.
I hope if we have a difference of opinions, that your way works fine for you. My intentions were to offer One solution, to help a fellow shooter who asked, a way that has worked Very well for me!
By full length carbide, I didn't mean full length of the die, but rather a carbide sleeve, the approximate full "Sized Length" of the Brass, just above the web, to the mouth.
A Lee has a half inch insert sleeve, which is tapered, (and the approximate full length of the brass), and a Redding can have dual sized rings, which essentially reach the same end result, of resizing the brass to the saami specs of .3910 above the web, down to .3800 at the mouth, as shown on page# 36.
The other taper can easily be verified with a ball mic, measuring wall thickness, from the web to the mouth, and this will vary by the brass manufacturer, but they will all taper thinner, towards the mouth.
I hope if we have a difference of opinions, that your way works fine for you. My intentions were to offer One solution, to help a fellow shooter who asked, a way that has worked Very well for me!
JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
I've got thousands of Range brass.
I bought a 7 bullet case gauge. S&W is picky. Sig 228 will shoot anything.
EVERY BULLET Has TO FIT in the gauge for the s&w !
The exact oal isn't a big deal. If it fits the case gauge and fits in the magazine without touching/dragging .... shoot it.
I bought a 7 bullet case gauge. S&W is picky. Sig 228 will shoot anything.
EVERY BULLET Has TO FIT in the gauge for the s&w !
The exact oal isn't a big deal. If it fits the case gauge and fits in the magazine without touching/dragging .... shoot it.
DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
I would recommend the use of a Lee Carbide Factory crimp die.
a lee factory crimp DIE will RUIN lead and plated bullets.
it sizes everything to jacketed bullet ammo size.
this is 100 % wrong for lead and plated bullet.
the bullets are then undersize and accuracy goes away.
it sizes everything to jacketed bullet ammo size.
this is 100 % wrong for lead and plated bullet.
the bullets are then undersize and accuracy goes away.
this statement is not the same as this one:
"9mm brass is unique, in that it has double tapered walls.'
380 TO 391 IS STRAIGHT LINES, not a double taper.
lol I will not call you names but basically ALL CARTRIDGE BRASS WALLS TAPER FROM THE NECK TO THE HEAD.
it is not unique to 9mm.
"9mm brass is unique, in that it has double tapered walls.'
380 TO 391 IS STRAIGHT LINES, not a double taper.
lol I will not call you names but basically ALL CARTRIDGE BRASS WALLS TAPER FROM THE NECK TO THE HEAD.
it is not unique to 9mm.
Ok, here we go, and I respectfully requested no peeing match! LOL
By full length carbide, I didn't mean full length of the die, but rather a carbide sleeve, the approximate full "Sized Length" of the Brass, just above the web, to the mouth.
A Lee has a half inch insert sleeve, which is tapered, (and the approximate full length of the brass), and a Redding can have dual sized rings, which essentially reach the same end result, of resizing the brass to the saami specs of .3910 above the web, down to .3800 at the mouth, as shown on page# 36.
The other taper can easily be verified with a ball mic, measuring wall thickness, from the web to the mouth, and this will vary by the brass manufacturer, but they will all taper thinner, towards the mouth.
I hope if we have a difference of opinions, that your way works fine for you. My intentions were to offer One solution, to help a fellow shooter who asked, a way that has worked Very well for me!
Sounds to me like he's using a "combination seat/crimp die" and it's adjusted improperly. BTW if your reloading 9mm and are getting "wasp waist" brass like pictured above your die is over working the brass. Like mentioned above setup the bullet seater so it's NOT crimping at all and the follow up with a Lee factory crimp die adjusted to apply a slight taper crimp. 9mm absolutely needs a proper crimp because it headspaces on the case mouth (too much is a bad thing). My son ran into this exact same issue with 45 acp and he had the seating die crimping the brass before the bullet was to the proper depth.
Lets put this to rest.
You must be referring to the 9mm auto, I was referring to the more common 9x19 parabellum, by Georg Luger.
The case, by saami spec at least, is indeed Tapered on external measurements, and Tapered in brass wall thickness. Stay with me now, thats Two. - Wall that meets Chamber, and Wall that encases powder, and projectile. You still with me??
Now, i dont know how You load, but .011 is a BIG number in my house, and not close enough to be the same! It IS Tapered. Read about it on any search.
.
No, not All brass tapers towards neck.
These were the two (double) tapers I originally implied.
A 9x17 is not tapered.
Brass can be blown out, stretched, expanded, set back, wild-catted, or whatever one desires, but the 9x19 saami spec is a tapered cartridge, with a tapered wall, unless modified, like it or not.
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