Is there a bushing die that doesn’t kill concentricity?

[Hohn]

OP here.
Excellent additional points, gents. I should mention that the .223 loading is mostly what I want to improve. I'm happy with my 6.5 loading in terms of brass variation and die quality, etc.

I used Wolf Gold pre-primed brass. I charge it and seat a bullet and go shoot matches (AR-tactical). The neck tension of this brass is all over the place, you can feel it as you seat bullets. I'm thinking that maybe just hitting each virgin case with the LCD might get me where I want to be. If it's too much tension, I'll use the sinclair expander. If it's too little, I'll get a undersized mandrel from Lee for the LCD.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection

"If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

"From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse."

 

[Uncle Ed]

Below by replacing the lower mounted Redding expander with a Forster high mounted floating expander this greatly reduce neck runout and neck drag. The die pictured is a standard non-bushing Redding .243 full length die and my Redding .243 bushing die produces far more neck runout. Using bushing die with a standard factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber with a larger neck diameter will increase case neck runout.

Below I replaced the RCBS .223 expander with a Forster expander assembly on my full length small base die. I use this die to size the bulk once fire Lake City 5.56 cases the first time. Thereafter I use my Forster full length .223 die for my AR15 rifles. The RCBS expander on the left is raised as high as it will go and will not function like the Forster floating expander.

Bottom line, I followed the advice in this forum and bought bushing dies for my factory rifles with SAAMI chambers. And my neck runout increased due to the amount the neck was reduced in diameter. And sizing twice with a body die and Lee collet die or sizing once with a Forster FL die will improve concentricity over using a bushing die..

 

[Rocketvapor]

Thanks ED,
My 22 Nosler Redding expander is the hardest to extract of anything I have even seen.
I've never had to lube inside the neck except for this one.
I tried polished the upper curve with no improvement.
The body die and collet neck die is what I went to with the 22N.
The Lee expander pulls out pretty easy and in other cartridges the Hornady does OK.
Just this one. I set it aside. Maybe I'll pick up a Forster expander to try in it.
Shame, just made a free shipping order from Midway

 

[LVLAaron]

For what it's worth.... My two main guns shoot teeny tiny groups. I use a Redding competition die set and a mandrel in the necks before I load. The mandrel was BY FAR the best thing I ever did to increase 223 consistency. Night and day difference.

I body size, neck size (with a bushing), and then go to the neck mandrel. 3 separate steps/dies.

 

[Uncle Ed]

For what it's worth.... My two main guns shoot teeny tiny groups. I use a Redding competition die set and a mandrel in the necks before I load. The mandrel was BY FAR the best thing I ever did to increase 223 consistency. Night and day difference.

I body size, neck size (with a bushing), and then go to the neck mandrel. 3 separate steps/dies.

And if you were using a Forster full length die you would only be sizing the case once. And you would also have the option of having Forster hone the dies neck to your desired diameter. This would help if you always use the same brand of brass with the same neck thickness.

Below there is a wealth of information on the main page of AccurateShooter.com.
Please note the neck tension with the three honed Forster dies. Also note the Forster dies below all have their expander installed.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

"Alternative to Bushings — Honed Full-Length dies
Conventional, non-bushing full-length sizing dies can create ultra-accurate ammo with very low run-out. For some applications, we prefer a non-bushing FL die over a bushing die — so long as the neck tension is correct. But many FL dies have an undersized neck diameter so you end up with excess neck tension, and you work the brass excessively. Forster offers a simple, inexpensive solution — honing the neck diameter to whatever size you want."

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

Table 2 - Inside Diameter Measurements for 5 different sizing dies

 

[Hohn]

Looks like Forster is backordered a good 16 weeks on .223 sizers. Grr.

 

[LVLAaron]

Lots of ways to skin a rabbit. Just sharing what I ended up with through my progression. Do what works for you.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Looks like Forster is backordered a good 16 weeks on .223 sizers. Grr.

You could just order the Forster expander and spindle assembly, they fit RCBS dies and the spindle can be cut to the correct length and installed on Redding dies. On the Redding die I also placed a rubber o-ring under the expanders lock ring to allow it to float.

 

[BoydAllen]

On the RCBS, if you don''t mind decapping as a separate step, and want to try the high expander you can just adjust the expander and stem so that the ball is in the same position as the Forster. Just remember that if you get it too high you will collapse the case on the up stroke.

Of all the factory expanders that I have tried, the Hornady impressed me the most. I would never use any of them without lube, unless I was doing very little work in terms of amount of expanding.

The best way to see what your expander is doing to runout is to size a case without it and measure it, and then on another case use the expander and measure its runout.

The Forster takes less effort because it is in a different place as far as the press's leverage, but that is not what matters for the case. For that it is the amount of pull on the neck when the expander is passing through.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Boyd, with the RCBS dies it depends on how high the expander spindle is threaded. In the photo I posted above the RCBS expander is raised as high as it will go and is still lower than the Forster unit. And the pull on the neck depends on neck thickness, the diameter of the expander, if the necks are skim turned and if the dies neck is honed.

 

[Richard Coody]

Looks like Forster is backordered a good 16 weeks on .223 sizers. Grr.

https://www.ebay.com/c/1037713755

https://www.opticsplanet.com/forster-full-length-sizing-die.html?_iv_code=2RJ-R6-FRFLSZD-5181

 

[bozo699]

And if you were using a Forster full length die you would only be sizing the case once. And you would also have the option of having Forster hone the dies neck to your desired diameter. This would help if you always use the same brand of brass with the same neck thickness.

Below there is a wealth of information on the main page of AccurateShooter.com.
Please note the neck tension with the three honed Forster dies. Also note the Forster dies below all have their expander installed.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

"Alternative to Bushings — Honed Full-Length dies
Conventional, non-bushing full-length sizing dies can create ultra-accurate ammo with very low run-out. For some applications, we prefer a non-bushing FL die over a bushing die — so long as the neck tension is correct. But many FL dies have an undersized neck diameter so you end up with excess neck tension, and you work the brass excessively. Forster offers a simple, inexpensive solution — honing the neck diameter to whatever size you want."

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

Table 2 - Inside Diameter Measurements for 5 different sizing dies

Thanks Ed that was a good read.
Wayne

 

[Hohn]

https://www.ebay.com/c/1037713755

https://www.opticsplanet.com/forster-full-length-sizing-die.html?_iv_code=2RJ-R6-FRFLSZD-5181

Thanks, I looked at all the retailers Forster recommended (midway, midsouth, etc) and all are sold out).

 

[Hohn]

Update: I loaded 100rd of match ammo last night in my typical virgin Wolf pre-primed cases. ONly this time I ran each one through the Lee Collet Die (LCD). HUGE difference in consistency of neck tension. Out of the box, the Wolf necks aren't even that round, and while "powder and bullet" sure is convenient, the brass had a lot of variation in some important ways. A trip through the LCD not only gave me lower tension (about a perfect 0.002 for now) but it was *consistent* where the brass out of the box is wildly variable in feel as you seat bullets.

I'll shoot these this weekend and I'm expecting to see results on target. Here's hoping...

 

[dellet]

If you are loading brass straight out of the box, without sizing, you’re asking for poor results.

OP here.

I used Wolf Gold pre-primed brass. I charge it and seat a bullet and go shoot matches (AR-tactical). The neck tension of this brass is all over the place, you can feel it as you seat bullets. I'm thinking that maybe just hitting each virgin case with the LCD might get me where I want to be. If it's too much tension, I'll use the sinclair expander. If it's too little, I'll get a undersized mandrel from Lee for the LCD.

What you saw tonight is more what you should expect and it will show on the target.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Its hard to imagine not fl sizing every piece of brass before i use it. If you ever measured some youd see how far across the map they are- even the most premium brass. Wolf would need to be annealed, turned, sized, sorted and culled to get a set to use

 

[Uncle Ed]

I can't believe I worked my two dyslexic typing fingers to the bone typing all these posts and the OP wasn't even sizing his cases.

 

[hoz53]

I do not have any custom rifles or shoot in any form of competition and came here to see if I could improve my reloads. I have been reloading for over 52 years and take reading the instructions and experience comments as insulting.

I followed the advice given here and bought bushing dies, neck turning tools, neck thickness gauges, primer pocket uniformers, etc. And I can tell you this, much of what benchrest shooters do will not help shooters with fat factory SAAMI chambers. And my point being with a factory chamber you have no control on how much the case neck expands. But you can control how much the neck diameter is reduced with a honed neck and how much the expander expands the neck. I did not have my Forster dies honed so I could use different brands of brass and varying neck thickness.

Below shows the difference in full length dies and how much they reduce the neck diameter. You can not control how much the neck expands when fired. But you can have the neck of the die honed if needed, and change the diameter of the expander to control bullet grip. You can also buy quality brass or use Remchester brass and skim turn the necks. Or just sort the cases with a Redding neck thickness gauge.

Bottom line, there are many reloaders here with factory rifles that do not shoot in competition and just want to make the best ammo they can. And using a bushing die involves more work, brass prep and expense and the end result can even increase neck runout. And with a standard non-bushing full length die the case body and neck are held in perfect alignment with a good die. And the real problem is neck thickness variations and how you expand the neck.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

Table 2 - Inside Diameter Measurements for 5 different sizing dies

Below a rough bushing that was scratching the case necks.

Below a bushing die that increased the runout so much the bullet is rubbing in the throat.

So do not shoot the messenger and ask the posters what type rifle they have and what type shooting they are doing. You have posters here asking questions about reloading pistols and 30-30 rifles. So don't add unnecessary comments about who is giving answers, reading the directions or who you think is unworthy of being here.

Below is the last firearm I bought, and I do not need a bushing die or even reload for it. And shooting it is a lot of fun and it didn't pay a arm or a leg for it.

P.S. Do not tell anyone I bought a cheap Chinese scope to put on it to shoot at 25 and 50 yards.

Is this Big EdP51 in disguise!! there is a heck of alot of good info in this thread, I just gotta get through it all.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I'm Uncle Ed who gives Dutch Uncle advice.

"A Dutch uncle is an informal term for a person who issues frank, harsh or severe comments and criticism to educate, encourage or admonish someone. Thus, a "Dutch uncle" is the reverse of what is normally thought of as avuncular or uncle-like."