Is there a bushing die that doesn’t kill concentricity?

[JSH]

Wow gents. I think there are a bunch of assumptions here.
OP makes no mention of group size or rig.
I mean is the gun capable of better?
I have chased my tail in years past on such things with factory rigs. You can make the most perfect cartridge in the world, then it means nothing if you don’t FIT it to what the chamber is.

 

[L.Sherm]

I've got both of John's dies bushing and non- bushing and both produce little runout.
Theres one word in Whiddens statement on there website that was mentioned that was left out " Typically".

 

[PopCharlie]

I have 3 precision rifles I load for. 6.5x47 Lapua, 6mm BR and a .223. All 3 are custom bolt action rifles. For all 3, I started with Redding type s bushing dies and competion seaters. I switched to Whidden bushing/micrometer top seaters due to concentricity issues induced by the sizer die. The .223 and the 6 br no longer have issues with runout. The 6.5x47 still had concentricity issues, so I switched to a Whidden click adjustable non-bushing full length sizer. This die makes extremely straight cases. I usually see less than .0005 runout on the necks. I was still seeing runout on the seated bullets of .002 or more. I called up Whidden, and sent the seater in with 3 fired cases and 1 bullet each of the 3 I shoot. They sent back a new sleeve and 2 custom stems for the seater (the 3rd bullet I already had stem for). They said the sleeve itself was not concentric. This solved the runout issue for the 6.5x47L. Now I see less than .001 on the bullet ogive.
I did not want to neck turn either. However, I had to start because of variance in neck wall thickness. Especially with the .223. I had variance of 2 to 3 thousanths after a few firings on about half the cases. So, I turned the necks.

 

[PopCharlie]

I have 3 precision rifles I load for. 6.5x47 Lapua, 6mm BR and a .223. All 3 are custom bolt action rifles. For all 3, I started with Redding type s bushing dies and competion seaters. I switched to Whidden bushing/micrometer top seaters due to concentricity issues induced by the sizer die. The .223 and the 6 br no longer have issues with runout. The 6.5x47 still had concentricity issues, so I switched to a Whidden click adjustable non-bushing full length sizer. This die makes extremely straight cases. I usually see less than .0005 runout on the necks. I was still seeing runout on the seated bullets of .002 or more. I called up Whidden, and sent the seater in with 3 fired cases and 1 bullet each of the 3 I shoot. They sent back a new sleeve and 2 custom stems for the seater (the 3rd bullet I already had stem for). They said the sleeve itself was not concentric. This solved the runout issue for the 6.5x47L. Now I see less than .001 on the bullet ogive.
I did not want to neck turn either. However, I had to start because of variance in neck wall thickness. Especially with the .223. I had variance of 2 to 3 thousanths after a few firings on about half the cases. So, I turned the necks.

Forgot to mention, I use a .264 expander ball on the non-bushing sizer. This gives me neck tension the same as a .288 bushing.

 

[LarryDScott]

I cked a lot of cases loaded on Redding dies, looking for run out.
I got bored w/the process of finding little to none and sold the gauge.
LDS

 

[JEFFPPC]

This post is a perfect reason to not read this or any forum to learn about reloading, sorry to say. Theyre is a lot to learn here if you have enough experience to separate the shaft from the wheat but new shooters are unable to do that. I have wondered why some very knowledgeable shooters I enjoyed reading for years have disappeared. I think I have figured it out. Instead of condemning something you are not experienced with , ask a questions. There is a wealth of knowledge available.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Below is a video by the 6.5 Guys telling you they are getting less runout with a Forster die and its expander than a bushing die. These are the same results I got testing both of these dies and my Forster dies do not have honed necks. Using the expander in a die is not the end of the world as many people say in this forum. Many of the people in this forum do not have custom rifles or shoot in competition. And these people are getting answers from competitive shooters with custom rifles with neck turned brass.

I have had Remington .223 cases with .009 neck thickness variations and you can forget bushing dies with brass like this. And even Redding bushing die FAQ tells you to use their expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more. And the more the neck diameter needs to be reduced the greater the chance of inducing runout with a bushing die. And most factory rifles let the neck expand a good deal and adding neck turning will to expand even more. And this will work the case neck more and induce more neck runout because you're adding to the amount the neck needs to be reduced in diameter.

This is why so many reloaders use a body die and the Lee collet die, because they get "LESS" neck runout with the collet die than a bushing die. And I get the same results with my Forster dies with their high mounted floating expander. And the front page of Accurate Shooter has articles on Forster dies and other methods to reduce neck runout. So again, bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass, and this is a proven fact.

Below is an image from a post here that shows why the Forster dies work so well. The case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This means the expander can not pull the case neck off center and induce runout. And if you think your Forster die is excessively reducing the neck diameter Forster will hone the dies neck to your desired diameter. And if you want you can neck turn your cases with your honed Forster die and the expander will barely touch the inside of the neck. So again using the expander is not the end of the world and Redding bushing FAQ tells you to use their expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more.

And besides making very concentric cases using a Forster full length die, you do not have to size the case twice or neck turn to get the same results with a collet die or using an expander die. And for most reloaders with factory rifles neck turning and using bushing dies will not give them any improvements with more costly dies.

The OP asked this question, "Is there a bushing die that doesn’t kill concentricity?" And I explained why a bushing die can increase neck runout and the Redding bushing die FAQ also explains this. And the reason for this is a bushing floats, can move from side to side and even tilt. And how much the bushing can move depends on neck thickness variations and the amount the neck needs to be reduced in diameter. Meaning with a bushing die, unturned necks and fat factory chambers, a bushing die will not fix these problems and can even increase neck runout.

 

[Uncle Ed]

This post is a perfect reason to not read this or any forum to learn about reloading, sorry to say. Theyre is a lot to learn here if you have enough experience to separate the shaft from the wheat but new shooters are unable to do that. I have wondered why some very knowledgeable shooters I enjoyed reading for years have disappeared. I think I have figured it out. Instead of condemning something you are not experienced with , ask a questions. There is a wealth of knowledge available.

I do not have any custom rifles or shoot in any form of competition and came here to see if I could improve my reloads. I have been reloading for over 52 years and take reading the instructions and experience comments as insulting.

I followed the advice given here and bought bushing dies, neck turning tools, neck thickness gauges, primer pocket uniformers, etc. And I can tell you this, much of what benchrest shooters do will not help shooters with fat factory SAAMI chambers. And my point being with a factory chamber you have no control on how much the case neck expands. But you can control how much the neck diameter is reduced with a honed neck and how much the expander expands the neck. I did not have my Forster dies honed so I could use different brands of brass and varying neck thickness.

Below shows the difference in full length dies and how much they reduce the neck diameter. You can not control how much the neck expands when fired. But you can have the neck of the die honed if needed, and change the diameter of the expander to control bullet grip. You can also buy quality brass or use Remchester brass and skim turn the necks. Or just sort the cases with a Redding neck thickness gauge.

Bottom line, there are many reloaders here with factory rifles that do not shoot in competition and just want to make the best ammo they can. And using a bushing die involves more work, brass prep and expense and the end result can even increase neck runout. And with a standard non-bushing full length die the case body and neck are held in perfect alignment with a good die. And the real problem is neck thickness variations and how you expand the neck.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

Table 2 - Inside Diameter Measurements for 5 different sizing dies

Below a rough bushing that was scratching the case necks.

Below a bushing die that increased the runout so much the bullet is rubbing in the throat.

So do not shoot the messenger and ask the posters what type rifle they have and what type shooting they are doing. You have posters here asking questions about reloading pistols and 30-30 rifles. So don't add unnecessary comments about who is giving answers, reading the directions or who you think is unworthy of being here.

Below is the last firearm I bought, and I do not need a bushing die or even reload for it. And shooting it is a lot of fun and it didn't pay a arm or a leg for it.

P.S. Do not tell anyone I bought a cheap Chinese scope to put on it to shoot at 25 and 50 yards.

 

[Hohn]

Read the Redding bushing die FAQ, it tells you about some of the problems that you can have using a bushing die.
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

The thing that stands out the most in the Redding FAQ is it tells you if your neck thickness varies .002 or more then use the expander with their die. And this means neck turning your cases if you do not want to use the expander. And a standard full length die may be a better choice than a bushing die. And if you lube the inside of your case necks using the expander is not the end of the world.

With a standard SAAMI chamber, the amount the neck needs to be reduced in diameter when sizing can increase neck runout. Remember the bushing floats, can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck. If you neck turn the necks will expand more when fired and need to be reduced even more.

If you remove the expander from any standard non-bushing full length die your case will be as concentric as it ever will be. And this is because the case body and neck are held in perfect alignment. And Then you can use a expander die or the Forster die with its high mounted floating expander that will not pull the necks off center.

The main reason so many reloaders use a body die and the Lee collet die is because they get less neck runout than with a bushing die.

And remember the answers you get here in this forum that many of these shooters have custom made rifles with custom chambers.

So again bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. And all my rifles are off the shelf factory rifles with larger neck diameter chambers. And I have better results with non-bushing full length dies and have less neck runout after sizing. And if you do not have neck thickness and runout gauges you will be better off with your Lee and Forster dies.

Below is a cheap Lee die and the locking collet holds and centers the expander and can make very concentric ammo. Meaning unlike other dies it is very hard to lock the expand down off center that causes neck runout.

Below is a photo of some of the .223 dies I tested and checked neck runout after sizing. And by far the Forster full length dies are the best bet for off the shelf factory rifles. The Lee collet die worked very well for reduced neck runout. "BUT" my runout gauge did not like the vertical speed bumps the Lee die left on the necks. And I did not like sizing the case twice to get the same or better results as the Forster dies.

A *most* helpful post, sir. I have a Forster in order.

My loaded .223 cases are .250 in the neck in virgin Wolf Gold brass. Not much thinner than Lapua I’m guessing.

 

[bozo699]

This post is a perfect reason to not read this or any forum to learn about reloading, sorry to say. Theyre is a lot to learn here if you have enough experience to separate the shaft from the wheat but new shooters are unable to do that. I have wondered why some very knowledgeable shooters I enjoyed reading for years have disappeared. I think I have figured it out. Instead of condemning something you are not experienced with , ask a questions. There is a wealth of knowledge available.

ed gets sidetracked don’t let it get to ya this is a great forum and this is a good thread. Just sort through it’s not tough to figure out who is in the know and who isn’t.
Wayne

 

[Uncle Ed]

I’ve only been handloading for two years. Always FL size .223 and 6.5cm (Lee and Forster respectively). Interested in a bushing setup to better dial in neck tension on various brass; I don’t neck turn and don’t want to. I don’t shoot BR or f-o.

Redding “s” dies and the Forster bushing bump both appear to induce significant runout from what I’ve seen online.

Are the RCBS Matchmaster dies better? I don’t have the funds for WTC and am not interested in custom dies.

Did any of you read the part about the OP doesn't want to neck turn, so this eliminates bushing dies. "WHY" push the neck thickness variations to the inside of the neck. So all the OP needs are new spare expanders for his existing dies and reduce their diameter.

Hohn, you will need to play with your expander, so don't play with them until you go blind.

P.S. do not pay attention to Bozo699, he wears very thick glasses and is nearly totally blind.
And he should not be refereeing any postings.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Like boyd said the most accurate guns on earth are loaded with fl bushing dies. Take from that what you will.

 

[Old Navy]

This topic made my head hurt.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Like boyd said the most accurate guns on earth are loaded with fl bushing dies. Take from that what you will.

First of all, in defense of bushing dies, most of the short range benchrest shooters that I know of use them. Think about that for a minute. Secondly the OP did not tell us anything about the rifles that he loads for, but if we assume factory chambers, with generous neck clearance on unturned brass, one of the possible issues with bushings is the amount of neck reduction involved during sizing. For that reason, I suggest that one viable option for those situations ( factory chambers combined with unturned necks) is to combine neck sizing with a Lee Collet die, with a body die, and a good seater. I have had good results with this combination as have others. Finally, I do not believe that anyone but Redding makes body dies, although using any bushing FL die without a bushing would have the same effect. Saying that you want perfection from factory dies is not realistic. Generally they over size brass that has been fired in factory chambers and that, by itself contributes to runout. FYI you can dial in neck tension with collet dies by using different diameter mandrels.

And Boyd recommended a body die and a Lee collet die for the OP. And this is due to the amount of neck reduction with a bushing die that will induce neck runout in a factory chamber. And I said the same thing before Boyd posted, and I also said I get the same or less neck runout with a Forster full length die vs the body die and a collet die.

And the OP stated he has only been reloading for two years and does not want to neck turn or shoot in competition. And some of you "experts" were giving bad advice.

 

[Hohn]

I shoot in competition, but not in a division where one needs to have turned neck ammo. I'm shooting an AR with a NATO chamber for crying out loud. It has cleaned a sling target multiple times, even once at 600.

I also have a cheap Savage that I might campaign where the rules permit it. Obviously not expecting to do that well against dedicated FTR type rigs, but to me the competition is against the target and the conditions, not so much other shooters. And doing well with lesser gear is a point of pride for me.

 

[Hohn]

Quit looking on line!!
Rather than thinking about runout, look at your targets. What do they say?
I've used Forster Precision Bushing Bump dies on just about everything (rifle) I load for, never bothered to check run out, never had accuracy issues and never had any group problems. A 5 shot group that can be covered with a dime is good enough for me.
It's NOT rocket science so don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
It's suppose to be fun and if it isn't? You're doing something wrong.

Shall I put aside a post to an *internet* forum telling me not to look online? The irony!

My targets are saying I have hideous SDs in the range of 30fps. (e-targets show impact velocity). And at the longer lines, the vertical agrees with that.

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of other things abut dies that are worth noting...
Another approach to bushing dies, that have the option of using an expander ball, is to coordinate bushing size with expander size so that the expander only has a thousandth or so of work to do. With unturned necks this gives more uniform neck ID shape and diameter, without there being so much pull that necks are pulled out of line.

The reason that unmodified one piece dies with expander balls produce as much runout as they do is that the IDs of the dies necks are so small that the expander has a lot of expanding up to do, and the amount of pull generated by this exceeds the yield strength of the case at the shoulder so that it yields slightly, asymmetrically, because of variation of thickness. If you have no option other than to use an unmodified one piece FL die, you can decap as a separate operation, use a decapping pin retainer, or grind down your expander and expand as a separate step using a die and mandrel, with generously lubed necks and a slow feed rate for the expander in the neck. I have found that this produces considerably improved runout compared compared with an expander ball in this situation, with both equally lubed.

Jumping to the issue of the suitability of competition short range benchrest loading practices for factory chambers and unturned necks, I generally agree with what has been posted but would point out one exception. Short range benchrest guys do not remove all or even most of the fouling from the inside of their case necks. This practice produces more uniform neck seating force, which may also mean more uniform bullet pull.

One variable in reloading that is often overlooked is that powders may have different "preferences" as far as neck tension, with some giving better results with more, and some with less. Of course semiautomatic firearms overlay their limits as to how completely this can be explored, but with bolt guns a considerable range can be tried. There is also the matching of primer to powder. For all of this I suggest actual experiments rather than simply looking for consensus. As I have written many times, test everything and believe your targets.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I have been reloading for a long time and have been caught with poorly made dies and some were from "top end" die makers. I have found that Lee makes the best (affordable) FL resizing die that actually don't overwork the brass and after trying a bunch of bushing dies I have settled on only two brands I'll buy, Whidden or Wilson. That's me so your results may vary...

 

[Metal God]

A couple of other things abut dies that are worth noting...
Another approach to bushing dies, that have the option of using an expander ball, is to coordinate bushing size with expander size so that the expander only has a thousandth or so of work to do. With unturned necks this gives more uniform neck ID shape and diameter, without there being so much pull that necks are pulled out of line.

The reason that unmodified one piece dies with expander balls produce as much runout as they do is that the IDs of the dies necks are so small that the expander has a lot of expanding up to do, and the amount of pull generated by this exceeds the yield strength of the case at the shoulder so that it yields slightly, asymmetrically, because of variation of thickness.

That is exactly why I use my expander ball with my bushing die . When controlling how much I size down my neck and the inside of the neck is lubed . The expander ball meets very little resistance pulling back though the neck .

I did some measuring and here is what I got .

Standard Redding 308 FL die with out expander sizes the inside neck diameter to .297 the expander is .306 for a total of .009 of expansion .

Redding FL bushing die using the .335 bushing ( no expander ) sizes the inside neck diameter down to .305 the expander is also .306 for a total of .001 of expansion .

Which would you all want if forced to use the expander do to factory chamber and uneven neck wall thickness ? Which one do you all think is more likely to pull things out of alignment ?

Using the expander is not always a bad thing if used in very specific ways . Lube the inside of the neck and reduce the amount of expansion IMHO is your best practice if you must use and expander button . Having the button as high in the die as possible could help as well if the case is still being supported by the die body as it starts to pull through .

 

[Richard Coody]

Wow what.a.thread. people have success with all these different methods. In fact i have used them all with success. Now over time i have picked among them for what works best for me. You just have to find what works best for you.

Just because they cost more doesn't mean they are better.

I will say by no means should dies with expander balls be excluded from your choices.

The forster full length sizer because of the placement of the expander ball loads quite concentric rounds for me. You can even have the die honed to reduce oversizing of the necks. Of course for me primer pockets go way before i get split necks. I do anneal though.

John whidden makes an expander ball kit that allows you to adjust your neck tension with his full length sizer. Even john says his full length sizer loads more concentric rounds than his bushing dies. Works well for me.

Many people really like the lee collet die with the redding body die. I have it and use it sometimes with .223. Just.decided to skip the extra step and use the forster.

Now for my benchrest rifles i use the harrells simi-custom bushing die. I believe it is very popular in competition. It is matched to your fired brass and sizes very little. I also have custom dies from neil jones and whidden. They size very little. I feel they are the best option. The harrell die is quite economical to me. I do add one step when using a bushing and that is final sizing.with an expander mandrel. K&m makes a kit with mandrels in .0005 increments. Now this is all neck turned brass.