6XC ground truth as of Jan 2020?

[Hoot]

I have the same neck dimensions as you. Same brass. If you are dead set on it being a neck clearance issue I’d turn necks before paying someone to ream the neck. Or try Norma.

I'm not dead set on anything. Just trying to eliminate one variable at a time. If you have the same barrel, are using Peterson brass and are not experiencing what you believe to be unwarranted heavy bolt lift, top of lift click and swiping, without turning your brass, then perhaps I'm still chasing an indeterminate target. To be fair, I'm still not sure that this issue is exacerbated by having too clean necks and unplated bullets. That was one avenue I intended to visit once comfortable shooting weather returns in two months. Currently +6 F as I type this. In my mind's eye, I can't believe that gall locking could contribute that much to pressure but life is for learning.

Looking back, had I known how much work the Peterson brass represented for this Criterion reamer barrel, I would have just bit the money bullet and gone with Norma brass. Now I have over 200 new Peterson brass and an equal amount of fired, to try and get a reasonable price for, if Norma brass winds up being my only avenue. The RCBS hand neck turner isn't the easiest, nor most precise tool out there, based upon the little experimenting I've done with it. Again, fools (on a budget) rush in...

Hoot

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Same neck dimensions, different reamer and bbl. mine is a MullerWorks. Only saying that I don’t think that is the problem.

 

[Dave Marshall]

I'm not dead set on anything. Just trying to eliminate one variable at a time. If you have the same barrel, are using Peterson brass and are not experiencing what you believe to be unwarranted heavy bolt lift, top of lift click and swiping, without turning your brass, then perhaps I'm still chasing an indeterminate target. To be fair, I'm still not sure that this issue is exacerbated by having too clean necks and unplated bullets. That was one avenue I intended to visit once comfortable shooting weather returns in two months. Currently +6 F as I type this. In my mind's eye, I can't believe that gall locking could contribute that much to pressure but life is for learning.

Looking back, had I known how much work the Peterson brass represented for this Criterion reamer barrel, I would have just bit the money bullet and gone with Norma brass. Now I have over 200 new Peterson brass and an equal amount of fired, to try and get a reasonable price for, if Norma brass winds up being my only avenue. The RCBS hand neck turner isn't the easiest, nor most precise tool out there, based upon the little experimenting I've done with it. Again, fools (on a budget) rush in...

Hoot

In my experience Petersen and Norma 6xc brass has measured the same. I’ve fired several thousand of Norma and about a thousand Petersen so far.

I don’t believe you have an issue in your case neck. I have used Norma and Petersen brass in chambers with .272, .275, .276, and .278 necks. I only had issues in the early .272 necked chamber with occasional outliers. The outliers simply would not chamber no matter how much force was applied. The CIP reamer has a .275 neck. Myself and others still run .275 necks for across the course rapid fire with bolt guns where feeding must be smooth. The .278 neck is a fairly recent change and I’m not sure why Mr Tubb felt it was necessary. I’m very curious to hear what the benefits are.

I would be sending that barrel back to Criterion for a replacement and/or evaluation.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I'm not dead set on anything. Just trying to eliminate one variable at a time. If you have the same barrel, are using Peterson brass and are not experiencing what you believe to be unwarranted heavy bolt lift, top of lift click and swiping, without turning your brass, then perhaps I'm still chasing an indeterminate target. To be fair, I'm still not sure that this issue is exacerbated by having too clean necks and unplated bullets. That was one avenue I intended to visit once comfortable shooting weather returns in two months. Currently +6 F as I type this. In my mind's eye, I can't believe that gall locking could contribute that much to pressure but life is for learning.

Looking back, had I known how much work the Peterson brass represented for this Criterion reamer barrel, I would have just bit the money bullet and gone with Norma brass. Now I have over 200 new Peterson brass and an equal amount of fired, to try and get a reasonable price for, if Norma brass winds up being my only avenue. The RCBS hand neck turner isn't the easiest, nor most precise tool out there, based upon the little experimenting I've done with it. Again, fools (on a budget) rush in...

Hoot

Are you 100% sure the crono numbers are good? Is the heavy bolt lifting and click on primary extraction a sizing issue, donut, trimming issue? Tried RL16? Too clean with abrasive?

 

[Hoot]

Are you 100% sure the crono numbers are good? Is the heavy bolt lifting and click on primary extraction a sizing issue, donut, trimming issue? Tried RL16? Too clean with abrasive?

Yes, my LabRadar does a great job after the initial learning curve. I've had it for 3 years. The heavy bolt lifting and click occurs with either new or resized cases. Haven't tried RL16 though I do have some. This happened ever since I did the break-in on the barrel when it was new (clean), using newly purchased brass and that was using what QuickLoad predicted to be a modest load. The only times I've not seen this happen was when I started a ladder test for a given bullet / powder combination, that was too low, judging from the resultant velocity. So there are circumstances where it doesn't manifest. I'd venture that if I tried tossing 115 DTAC's at velocities reported here, I'd have to pound the bolt open.

This will have to wait until comfortable weather returns in April, to really do more troubleshooting. You folks have given me some good ideas to pursue when that time arrives.

Hoot

 

[Mark Chesebro]

Hello,
Where does this cartridge stand?
(Components geared to 6XC or 6XC II?)
JGS has the 0.4714 reamer, so which if any of these are cross compatible out of the box, in addition to the dies from RW?
Thanks,

0.200 line for current production brass:
Norma?
- loaded neck diameter?
- case volume?
Peterson?
- loaded neck diameter?
- case volume?
Alpha?
- loaded neck diameter?
- case volume?

Off the shelf die compatibility at 0.200 line:
Redding?
Forster?
Wilson?
Whidden?

Thanks,

I have 100 unfired 6xc cases original Tubb. Pm me if interested.
Mark

 

[Boatschool02]

I have 100 unfired 6xc cases original Tubb. Pm me if interested.
Mark

Thanks for the offer.
I never jump into a cartridge without a plan.
Nice to know brass, dies, reamer(s) and specs before starting and deciding if a custom reamer & dies are prudent.
Didn't mean to spark a fire.
-
Probably should have asked a more basic question:

Which off the shelf dies (other than Redding from RW) if any match the 6XCII reamer and which match the smaller, original base dimension?

Would be more interested in the Tubb die if not for only two neck bushing sizes.

Thanks,

 

[js2013]

Looks like Manson Reamers sells neck Reamers for $50. One option for those with .275 necks which are too tight for their brass, a .278 neck only reamer should do the trick.

Manson standard neck reamer is $50 and .276. The .278 is custom and is $90. A T-handle if desired is $20. The necks can be reamed by hand.

 

[Dave Marshall]

Thanks for the offer.
I never jump into a cartridge without a plan.
Nice to know brass, dies, reamer(s) and specs before starting and deciding if a custom reamer & dies are prudent.
Didn't mean to spark a fire.
-
Probably should have asked a more basic question:

Which off the shelf dies (other than Redding from RW) if any match the 6XCII reamer and which match the smaller, original base dimension?

Would be more interested in the Tubb die if not for only two neck bushing sizes.

Thanks,

I’ve been using John Whidden’s 6xc dies for brass fired in 6xcII chambers and they’ve worked just fine.

I also have Tubb dies and plan to test if they’ll work with brass that isn’t Alpha’s garbage. As far as bushings, I had a set of shoulder bushings made for my dies, but still end up with the .268 one supplied with the dies. Unless you’re turning your necks needlessly thin or using .22-250 brass with thin neck, you shouldn’t need any other bushings.

The only hiccup I’m aware of with using older, smaller dies is the possibility that the die will shave some brass off the base of the cases. Alpha cases have soft bases and definitely experience some galling and shaving in Tubb dies even when the brass is new and unfired.

I have some work to do in the shop today. I should be able to try it today. I’ll report what I find.

 

[Dave Marshall]

It seems both my Tubb dies and my Whidden dies are shaving brass from the base or the body and base of my brass fired in my 6xcII chamber. Not good. Looks like I can either try Redding 6XC II dies from RW or start looking at custom dies. Unfortunately, I have several barrels chambered already.

These were once fired Petersen cases lubed well with Imperial wax.

 

[urbanrifleman]

It seems both my Tubb dies and my Whidden dies are shaving brass from the base or the body and base of my brass fired in my 6xcII chamber. Not good. Looks like I can either try Redding 6XC II dies from RW or start looking at custom dies. Unfortunately, I have several barrels chambered already.

These were once fired Petersen cases lubed well with Imperial wax.

Buy a reamer from Tubb and run it in with your fingers and clean up the chamber. Its It's easy.

 

[Dave Marshall]

Buy a reamer from Tubb and run it in with your fingers and clean up the chamber. Its It's easy.

That would not work. The chambers are already slightly larger than the Tubb reamer spec. I’d just end up with too much headspace. I’ll probably just get a die from Whitley until I shoot out all the barrels and replace the brass.

 

[tclaunch]

With the XCII chamber, the Whitley XCII die is the right choice. That die is what I recommend. I use the XCII reamer.

 

[Hoot]

...snip...I don’t believe you have an issue in your case neck...snip

I believe you may be correct Dave. I've been out of town since I cast my chamber, initially reporting the neck mic'd at .2750 OD.
Sometimes I feel like such a rookie, especially when I forget and wind up disregarding instructions. I had maybe waited 10 minutes after making the cast before measuring the neck. Now that I'm back home in the great white north where its currently -13F outside, I went down to the shop and thought I'd measure that neck again. Guess what? Now it measures repeatedly at .2774! With my spent brass necks measuring .2750, that's not so bad. That having been said, a bullet wont fit down those .2750 OD necks, let alone drop in but that was after wet pin tumbling them for an hour and a half. They may indeed have suffered a little from repeatedly falling upon one another, despite being in water. Might account for the bullets not passing through. Just a hunch...

As I said, this is not much more than a cabin fever talking point at the moment as its a long time before comfortable shooting weather returns and I can actually try a few of the suggestions passed along. That is, if I don't just want to pull up to the range, plug and cup up and let a few fly through an open truck window at the snow covered berm, just to check the bolt lift and bring the spent cases back into my warm house (only 10 minutes away) for examination. I hate waiting to get questions answered for too long. Makes me owley.

Hoot

 

[spclark]

Cerrocast alloy instructions indicate 30 minutes between casting removal and when critical dimensions are taken. Before and after will give numbers that aren't reliable. You want to test fired case necks for bullet clearance before any case prep is done, preferably as soon as they're out of the chamber. SS media can peen necks so you may have a point there if your neck ID is at or below minimum.

-16 here this AM, you must be close by me!

 

[Evan]

I believe you may be correct Dave. I've been out of town since I cast my chamber, initially reporting the neck mic'd at .2750 OD.
Sometimes I feel like such a rookie, especially when I forget and wind up disregarding instructions. I had maybe waited 10 minutes after making the cast before measuring the neck. Now that I'm back home in the great white north where its currently -13F outside, I went down to the shop and thought I'd measure that neck again. Guess what? Now it measures repeatedly at .2774! With my spent brass necks measuring .2750, that's not so bad. That having been said, a bullet wont fit down those .2750 OD necks, let alone drop in but that was after wet pin tumbling them for an hour and a half. They may indeed have suffered a little from repeatedly falling upon one another, despite being in water. Might account for the bullets not passing through. Just a hunch...

As I said, this is not much more than a cabin fever talking point at the moment as its a long time before comfortable shooting weather returns and I can actually try a few of the suggestions passed along. That is, if I don't just want to pull up to the range, plug and cup up and let a few fly through an open truck window at the snow covered berm, just to check the bolt lift and bring the spent cases back into my warm house (only 10 minutes away) for examination. I hate waiting to get questions answered for too long. Makes me owley.

Hoot

In the case of my 22BR, the ejector was slamming the case neck into the raceway as I opened the bolt, just slightly denting the neck out of round so that bullets would not fit, giving the mistaken appearance of a too tight night. Just something to check for! I ended up cutting a coil off the spring to soften up the ejector some.

 

[Hoot]

In the case of my 22BR, the ejector was slamming the case neck into the raceway as I opened the bolt, just slightly denting the neck out of round so that bullets would not fit, giving the mistaken appearance of a too tight night. Just something to check for! I ended up cutting a coil off the spring to soften up the ejector some.

Since I have mine out right now, I was already planning on doing something about it as its so strong, I can't push it in with my strongest finger. I grab my brass as soon as it clears the action or It would be four shooting positions to my right when it lands. I have an excellent collection of springs. When we retire a piece of equipment at work. During disassembly, I pick out all the useful looking springs and will probably swap it out with one that's not as strong. Hate cutting them back if it can be avoided. My wife worries about my hoarding. Too many years of not having a simple part or piece of machinable metal stock when I needed it has created a monster.

Hoot

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I believe you may be correct Dave. I've been out of town since I cast my chamber, initially reporting the neck mic'd at .2750 OD.
Sometimes I feel like such a rookie, especially when I forget and wind up disregarding instructions. I had maybe waited 10 minutes after making the cast before measuring the neck. Now that I'm back home in the great white north where its currently -13F outside, I went down to the shop and thought I'd measure that neck again. Guess what? Now it measures repeatedly at .2774! With my spent brass necks measuring .2750, that's not so bad. That having been said, a bullet wont fit down those .2750 OD necks, let alone drop in but that was after wet pin tumbling them for an hour and a half. They may indeed have suffered a little from repeatedly falling upon one another, despite being in water. Might account for the bullets not passing through. Just a hunch...

As I said, this is not much more than a cabin fever talking point at the moment as its a long time before comfortable shooting weather returns and I can actually try a few of the suggestions passed along. That is, if I don't just want to pull up to the range, plug and cup up and let a few fly through an open truck window at the snow covered berm, just to check the bolt lift and bring the spent cases back into my warm house (only 10 minutes away) for examination. I hate waiting to get questions answered for too long. Makes me owley.

Hoot

I wish it would get that cold here this winter. It’s been in the 20’s and that makes for more traffic at the range. I usually am not tripping over people and waiting when it’s nice and cold. Go shoot it.

 

[Hoot]

I don’t believe you have an issue in your case neck.

Just a follow up to a follow up: Dave, you win the kewpie doll! We finally got some acceptable weather today for a range visit, other than still trekking through ankle deep snow in most places, mud in the others. I had a test load ready to go, waiting for this day.
New Peterson brass. Neck turned from .00140-.00150, down to .0014 +0 -,0005. Mainly just the high spots cleaned off. IE barely smaller than they were. Using a pin gauge, I expanded the mouths this time to .2415. The resultant neck tension was less than I personally have ever gone but they held firm. I seated the bullets at 2.138 (bullet comparator and calipers) which is where they run into the rifling. Previous outings with the 108 ELD-M grouped best with them loaded to the start of the rifling. Powder was H4350 again and CCI 450 primers. I began my foulers at 37.8 gr which yielded an average velocity of 2850. Far less than members running 115 DTAC's at or above 3k fps. From the first shot until I gave up, I had heavy bolt lift. The empties bind in the chamber again, right where the case wall meets the shoulder transition as far as I could see. I had also included some bullets plated with HBN but that didn't help, though I skipped expanding the necks beyond how they came from the factory since with the HBN plating, the seating resistance felt close to ideal. No ring around the noses like I used to get with unexpanded necks and bare bullets, from the force needed to seat them.

I accept that this apparent high pressure is not the result of any neck tension issue. I had loaded up a brief ladder test but stopped at 38.2gr of H4350 because bolt lift just kept getting heavier the higher I went. This is daunting as I'm not running anywhere near what others successfully run without heavy bolt lift. FWIW, primers showed no sign of even beginning to flatten but then they didn't all last summer as I was wrestling with this issue. I have not tried changing to powders with a history of lower pressure for similar velocities, though I have some on hand, as that's treating the symptom and not the cause. Plenty of folks successfully use H4350 in this caliber. I'd like to get back to ~2975 fps as the resultant 5-shot, 100 yd groups really were awe inspiring at that point. I have not tried Nosler brass, nor resized 22-250. I do have some R-P .22-250 brass but jeez Louise, I came to this caliber when I chose to re-barrel my shot out 6mm Rem, after reading it was "second to the .308 in ease of tuning". I have a .308 and it truly is easy peezy to produce many great shooting loads with it. What's next? Kiss the chamber up with a 6XC-II reamer or walk away and swallow the loss? I really like the quality of Peterson brass. It runs great in my .260 and I'd like to stay with it.

Frustrated Hoot

P.S. I'm not the only person running a 6XC Criterion barrel with this issue.

 

[kolar55]

P.S. I'm not the only person running a 6XC Criterion barrel with this issue.

Have you contacted Criterion about this? What do they have to say about it? If there's more than one with the same issue, maybe they're reamer is junk. I'd give them a call if you haven't already.